Might I suggest you do the same. Catholicism is not, and never has been even a remote reflection of what Jesus and his apostles taught....if it was, then you would not have abandoned it....would you?
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What are your thoughts on Christianity?
- Thread starter MatthewA
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Might I suggest you do the same. Catholicism is not, and never has been even a remote reflection of what Jesus and his apostles taught....if it was, then you would not have abandoned it....would you?
You don’t know why I left Christianity. Don’t be so presumptuous to even think you know how I practiced Christianity. Come down a few 10,000 feet in altitude.
Sorry but @Deeje wasnt being presumptuous.
Did she say she knew why you left? No.
But you did leave Christendom, right?
Would you have done that, if you still thought it was ‘the way to God’?
It is just a question, no offense intended.
Hang on a minute.....
Perhaps you need to follow your own advice there Jainarayan.....was this not a presumptuous statement on your own part? I asked a question and you were free to answer it or not. You have already stated that you rejected everything about Catholicism and I presume the same about rest of Christendom...?
You chose Hinduism for your own reasons, and obviously from your previous Catholic religion, you understand that the God of the Bible does not tolerate the worship of other gods.....so I remain puzzled by your hostility....
Please don’t mistake confidence for arrogance....no one needs to apologise for telling the truth surely? I have done my research.
What did I say that wasn’t true? Please remember that I too was once part of that religious system and like you, I left it, probably for the same reasons.
You chose to throw away the God of the Bible as if he was responsible for all those things that you rejected...whereas I chose to find the God I knew existed, but could not possibly be connected with that disunited rabble.
Which of us made the better choice? I guess we will find out one day.....?
Sounds presumptuous to me.
It was a question of logic....why would you abandon something as nonsense, and then defend it? That was illogical to me....
It was illogical because you don’t read what I write. I don’t recall ever calling it nonsense. I don’t disparage others’ beliefs. I said, repeatedly, that the theology, cosmology, soteriology and ontology don’t make sense to me. That doesn’t mean it’s nonsense. It just doesn’t work for me. That doesn’t mean it’s without merit for someone else. Seven hundred million Catholics and three hundred million Eastern Orthodox can’t all be deluded.
Whereas you dismiss my beliefs as idolatry, worshiping false gods, and a false religion, I am open minded, respectful and tolerant enough to accept that there is more than one way to God. Some roads take longer than others, some are dead ends, some roads have washed out bridges. We may start out on one road but find we don’t like the scenery, so we take an off ramp. Maybe the next road is better, maybe not. Someone else may like the scenery.
So you believe that the Abrahamic God has nothing to offer you? Can I ask what it is that your Hindu gods provide that he doesn't? Or is it a case of something he doesn't provide that you want? There must have been a reason why you ditched him.
I ditched the religion, along with the theology, but the cosmology stayed, because I don't believe creation took 7 literal days.The creative days were much longer...thousands...even millions of years. Genesis does not disagree.
The soteriology was skewed by the church, but I do believe we need salvation because we will all account to the Creator, no matter what religious beliefs we hold......they don't magically make him go away.
And ontology....well that is covered by the Bible and that is enough for me. Everything fits like a giant jigsaw puzzle and the big picture is beyond anything we could imagine.
Yet, creation also speaks about God....louder than any words could. We have a reason for being here and most people have no idea what it is. I find that rather sad and a strong indication that the church has let its people down dreadfully....most will pray the "Our Father" or "the Lord's Prayer" every week in church without having a clue about what it means.....I was one of them. That light bulb moment, of finally understanding what I was praying for, is one I will never forget.
Oh, I see....but what if the things you rejected as 'making no sense' (BTW that is the definition of "nonsense"....look it up) were made up by the church and were never the truth in the first place? Would that have made a difference to your choices? Or is that the Bible has rules that you do not wish to obey?
Who told you that there is more than one way to God? The Bible teaches the exact opposite...there is only one God, one truth, and one true spiritual path....so what if you're wrong?
Do you see that we all have been given the freedom to choose who and what to believe and worship, without any direct intervention from God. He will not interfere with our choices.....that way, we will all be caught in the act of being our authentic selves.....the one God sees, not the one we pretend to be to others.
I think we used to have time for that kind of indecision....but not anymore. If Jesus said that the genuine seekers would find, and the ones who keep knocking would be answered.....what of those who stop seeking and who no longer knock?
I don't think that there is time for admiring the scenery in a world ruled by the devil. (1 John 5:19) Life has become a blur....it feels like someone has sped up time itself.....and I believe that the Bible gives us a very good explanation for that, and everything else that is happening right now.......we either acknowledge it, or we can ignore it.....It's up to us....isn't it?
So what does the Abrahamic God have to offer? What do I want? Nothing other than happiness and peace of mind. A quote from Gandhi says it perfectly: "I find a solace in the Bhagavad-Gita that I miss even in the Sermon on the Mount. When disappointment stares me in the face and all alone I see not one ray of light, I go back to the Bhagavad-Gita. I find a verse here and a verse there, and I immediately begin to smile in the midst of overwhelming tragedies -- and my life has been full of external tragedies -- and if they have left no visible or indelible scar on me, I owe it all to the teaching of Bhagavad-Gita". The Sermon on the Mount and much of Jesus's teachings are a reiteration of the Bhagavad Gita, tweaked for is audience.
That's about the only part of the Bible I don't have a problem with, and actually respect and revere, and even quote. When Jesus made the lame man walk, that's a retelllng of the same miracle Krishna performed in the Mahabharata. When he was a teenager he and his older brother Balarama were in a market and saw a lame girl with her basket of goods to sell. She looked pitiful. He went to the girl and asked her why she was walking like that. She said she'd always been that way. He said well, I think you should walk properly. He took her hand while everyone watched her stand upright and walk normally.
What do the Hindu gods provide that yours doesn't? The gods I worship provide everything... protection, grace, courage, hope, help of all kinds, teachings, love, friendship. There were times on the road I should have been killed because of drivers who ran red lights (a tractor trailer comes to mind), stop signs, ice on the road, a host of other reasons but I'm alive because Lord Ganesha has protected me. He also lets me know when I've done something stupid. Goddess Lakshmi has helped me through serious financial problems I'm still experiencing due to this "pandemic" and not having a job. Money comes when and where I least expect it. Goddess Saraswati helps me with my music. We have an agreement of sorts.. I apply myself, she gives me inspiration and nudges me. Lord Hanuman gives me strength... physical and emotional. And Lord Krishna is always there... day or night, 24/7. What can your God give me except threats of hellfire and punishment? So again, what does the Abrahamic God have to offer?
Creation is not in question. I cannot accept that we have only one life. I cannot believe we need "saving". I cannot believe we are natural-born sinners and need that salvation and redemption. In fact, Paramahamsa Yogananda said exactly that: “The greatest sin is to call yourself a sinner. You are a child of God. Though gold be covered with mud for centuries, it remains gold. So the pure ‘gold’ of the soul can be covered over with the mud of delusion for aeons, but in its true nature it remains forever undefiled.” I cannot believe that a person died to "save" all of mankind, even if that person is an avatar or incarnation of God, which I'm iffy about anyway. I cannot believe that we will be judged. I cannot believe we need commandments and laws from God, and punishment for breaking them.
We don't know why either. Some teachers and writings say it's because we, the real "we", i.e. the soul, wanted to experience things. Once we started the cycle though, we got trapped in it, called samsara. That's what we work towards getting out of, breaking the cycle of rebirth. We can't possibly advance spiritually sufficiently in one lifetime to break free.
I think I answered that in the previous paragraph. What rules do I not wish to obey? Let's see... I don't steal, I don't lie, I don't kill, I don't envy or am jealous, i.e. covet, I don't commit adultery... oh wait, I do sleep with another man. Yep, there's the clincher. I'm doomed. God is so preoccupied with whom I sleep with, that's unhealthy.
Our teachers and saints have told us, our scriptures tell us. Are you going to tell me that people who have never heard of the Bible, Jesus, your God are not gong to be "saved"? Even though they might live a more righteous life than those who accept Jesus as their "savior"? That's not a God or path that makes sense to me.
All religions are true. God can be reached by different religions. ... Different people call on [God] by different names: some as Allah, some as God, and others as Krishna, Siva, and Brahman. It is like the water in a lake. Some drink it at one place and call it 'jal', others at another place and call it 'pani', and still others at a third place and call it 'water'. The Hindus call it 'jal', the Christians 'water', and the Moslems 'pani'. But it is one and the same thing. Sri Ramakrishna Paramahansa.
Ekam sadviprah bahudha vadanti "One Truth the sages call by many names. Rig Veda 10.164.46
Oh right, Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me". It never occurred to anyone that he was teaching the people of his time and place. People who were peasants, farmers, fishermen, simple villagers who knew only their God. People he was trying to bring back to their God. It would kind of defeat his purpose to tell them "oh yeah, worship any old way you want, it's all good" when he was trying to get them back to their way? So, who else told you yours is the only way?
You can't accept that I don't believe the Bible. About the only things I think it has to offer are the poetry, the lessons and stories about people's determination and strength, the "red letter" versions of the gospels. I don't accept the Levitical laws, Paul's ramblings, Revelations. I can't even describe it or understand how people can believe that it's literal. And people make fun of our stories? At least we accept that they are allegories for teaching.
Why should I believe I'm wrong when I think Christianity's beliefs have so many holes in them?
But we will be punished.
They go along their merry way. Their karma, as it does with all of us, will determine their fates. It may take them longer to spiritually advance but they'll get there eventually. Everyone gets a participation award. There is no hell or punishment.
Christians are more preoccupied with the devil and demons than any other religion is. It's an unhealthy obsession. We don't believe in the devil. Evil is not the work of the devil, it's the work of people. Why would an ostensibly benevolent God allow such evil to run amok?
A couple of nice explanations of why evil and suffering exist.:
Suffering and the Problem of Evil.
Like Captain America said "I can do this all day".
It's the way to God for some people, not me or billions of other Terrans. Therein lies the problem in some or many Christians' thinking... it's that way or no way. You'll find all the answers in the immediately preceding post.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
As typical of all so many JW's, the fact that Catholicism is based on the Gospel gets lost in their own blind belief of what the Governing Body tells them about the Catholic church and other churches in what they snarly call "Christendom". If they ever dared to go to a mass and listen for themselves, the fact that it's all about the Gospel with us would be very clear, but the Governing Body tells them that they can't do that, or else...
Over over again I post the liturgy of the mass to show that the above is true, and yet over and over again it gets virtually ignored by the JW's here.
Over over again I post the liturgy of the mass to show that the above is true, and yet over and over again it gets virtually ignored by the JW's here.
Thank you for that post...it was very informative and sent me to do some interesting research.
There was quite a bit to address, so I'll break it up.....
The following is a quote in “Treasury of the Christian Faith” by S. J. Corey and is a reported conversation between Mahatma Gandhi and the former British Viceroy of India, Lord Irwin:
“Lord Irwin paid a visit to the Mahatma in his ashram. During the conversation Lord Irwin put this question to his host: ‘Mahatma, as man to man, tell me what you consider to be the solution to the problems of your country and mine.’ Taking up a little book from the nearby lampstand, Gandhi opened it to the fifth chapter of Matthew and replied, ‘When your country and mine shall get together on the teachings laid down by Christ in this Sermon on the Mount, we shall have solved the problems not only of our countries but those of the whole world.’ That from a Hindu!”
What about the ones that “Lord Ganesha” does not protect? Why is he protecting you and not them, do you think?
Why is he not protecting all those in India, where about 80% of the population are Hindus and who have died by the thousands with Covid 19? And how was he protecting those who couldn’t afford overpriced oxygen on the black market when the hospitals ran out?.....or those whose half burned bodies were floating down the Ganges because their families couldn’t pay for the extra wood needed to finish their cremation? Can you explain this to me please?
But I cannot find such a place in the Bible though. "Hell" in the Bible is the grave.....nothing scary about it.
There was quite a bit to address, so I'll break it up.....
From my perspective, “happiness and peace” in this world is fleeting and momentary until reality kicks in and I realize how transitory it really is. True peace of mind can only come when I see a way out of the suffering and tragedy of this world for everyone, especially now, when every nation on earth is experiencing a common ‘holocaust’.
I have no reason to believe that, but I acknowledge that others might. Who said what and when has had scholars arguing for centuries.
The following is a quote in “Treasury of the Christian Faith” by S. J. Corey and is a reported conversation between Mahatma Gandhi and the former British Viceroy of India, Lord Irwin:
“Lord Irwin paid a visit to the Mahatma in his ashram. During the conversation Lord Irwin put this question to his host: ‘Mahatma, as man to man, tell me what you consider to be the solution to the problems of your country and mine.’ Taking up a little book from the nearby lampstand, Gandhi opened it to the fifth chapter of Matthew and replied, ‘When your country and mine shall get together on the teachings laid down by Christ in this Sermon on the Mount, we shall have solved the problems not only of our countries but those of the whole world.’ That from a Hindu!”
The one with the elephant’s head...right?
What about the ones that “Lord Ganesha” does not protect? Why is he protecting you and not them, do you think?
Why is he not protecting all those in India, where about 80% of the population are Hindus and who have died by the thousands with Covid 19? And how was he protecting those who couldn’t afford overpriced oxygen on the black market when the hospitals ran out?.....or those whose half burned bodies were floating down the Ganges because their families couldn’t pay for the extra wood needed to finish their cremation? Can you explain this to me please?
Again I have to wonder why your gods are blessing you, but not millions of others who worship them too? What are you doing right that they are doing wrong?
I dunno...the Hindu hell looks pretty scary to me...
But I cannot find such a place in the Bible though. "Hell" in the Bible is the grave.....nothing scary about it.
The Bible's narrative lays it all out....we were meant to live forever...that is programmed into the human psyche, so death is a foreign concept...something that has never sat well with us even though every single human who has ever lived....has died. We fight the idea of death because we were meant to live one life....forever right here on earth in the most beautiful paradise....but some rebels abused their free will and forced God to take a detour. That detour will ultimately take us back to the beginning because the Creator always finishes what he starts.
Now God needs to save us from ourselves actually....from the heritage of selfishness and wrongdoing passed on in our genetics, which makes us more interested in our own wants and needs, and less about pleasing God and being interested in the welfare of others. That is what brought death into the world and stole from us what would have been an idyllic existence as caretakers of this planet and guardians of all its lifeforms. This poor excuse for a life was never the one God intended for us to live, but free will was a gift and its abuse turned it into a curse. Man is seeing what his selfish choices mean in the big picture....and hopefully many will see it as the lesson it was intended to be, and act accordingly.
Jesus is not God and he never was. That is a satanic lie. There is only one God, but I notice that Hinduism also has a trinity.
Jesus' life was offered as a redemption for the human race.
If you understand what redemption means you will see that in order to redeem something that was given up, an equal amount had to be paid to get it back. Pawn shops operate on that principle.....you redeem something by paying the price to get it back. That is how Jesus' sacrifice works.....a perfect, sinless life was lost for all of Adam's children, and a perfect sinless life was offered to redeem them. How is that a difficult concept?
Sounds complicated.....but the Bible's explanation to me is so much simpler. There is no cycle of rebirth...there is only life....one inevitable death....and a resurrection back to life, which has not happened yet.
Oh, so the fact that you are gay prevented you from continuing as a Catholic? Is that right?
Can you be a gay Christian? The Bible says yes, because being gay does not in and of itself, preclude anyone from everlasting life....only immorality does. Since the Bible says that adultery and fornication are prohibited for God's worshippers, and scripturally, SSM is not acceptable, only those who have illicit sex are excluded, like anyone who practices heterosexual sex is likewise breaking God's law if they are not married. God does not just discriminate against gays.....he discriminates against all fornicators.
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More nonsense eh? It might interest you know that the Bible covers those who have died in ignorance....and since we believe that the dead are all still dead, and sleeping peacefully unaware of anything that is going on, no one has had to answer for anything up until now. Jesus said that he would call the dead from their graves and give a reward to those who died faithful, but a period of judgment and education to those who never knew God or his Christ. (John 5:28-29; Acts 24:15)
I had to read that several times because it made no sense to me....it is rather contradictory unless you'd like to rephrase it...? How would bringing people back to God be any other way than the way Jesus did it? He was a devout Jewish man appealing to Jewish people about the God they already worshipped, but who had been misrepresented by their religious leaders. Christendom has done exactly the same thing. Jesus did not tell them to take a different way.....there was only one way back to God.
Yes I can....we all have the choice to believe....or not. God will never force us to serve him...it has to be our free willed choice.
Well, the stories in the Bible are not as far fetched or as comical as those in Hinduism...but hey, to each his own....right? Whatever floats your boat....
I guess you can swap one set of holes for another....again, its our choice.....but we have to know what we are choosing in order to make the right decision...otherwise we might well be jumping out of the frying pan into the fire...
Even in Hinduism there is punishment....it serves a purpose, otherwise laws have no value. Penalties have to serve justice. The punishment has to fit the crime. If we know what the crime is before we commit it, then how do we scream "injustice!" when the penalty is imposed?
That is not what I have read.
What is Naraka?
28 Deadly Punishments Mentioned in Garuda Puran Which Are Likely to be Held after Death
The Bible tells us precisely why God allows the devil and his hordes to "run amok". He is using them to test out each one of us as to our worthiness to become citizens of his Kingdom. When it "comes" God's will can then "be done on earth as it is in heaven".....people can pray that prayer till the cows come home...but unless you know what that means, the devil (who has most of mankind believing that he is some kind of fictional character instead of the arch enemy of God and mankind) will lead you down the road to oblivion along with all who fall for his lies.
That is how I see it and how the Bible explains everything to me
Viker
Häxan
I'm a former Christian. Even baptized at 11. But my experience with it was often nightmarish. I was mostly filled with heartbreak and disappointment. For a few years I lashed out against it. I've since grown and moved on with no hate or grudge to bear. Those will weigh someone down.
Since the Bible exposes Christendom as a counterfeit form of Christianity, is it any wonder that people leave feeling 'heartbreak and disappointment'? True Christianity would never do that to a person. Jesus said that 'the truth sets you free'....it doesn't give you the impression that it is some kind of prison from which you must escape.
I can understand why people "lash out" because I did too.....but once I found out what I was recoiling from, I understood that God hates it too.
The Bible tells us never to hold a grudge or to harbor resentment because the main person getting hurt is ourselves.
It was explained to me that "harboring" something was to keep it in a safe place....resentment has no "safe" place....it only leads to hatred and anger.
I also learned that to "entertain" bad thoughts was to invite them in and feed them.....aren't word pictures a powerful thing?
Thank you for that post...it was very informative and sent me to do some interesting research.
There was quite a bit to address, so I'll break it up.....
From my perspective, “happiness and peace” in this world is fleeting and momentary until reality kicks in and I realize how transitory it really is. True peace of mind can only come when I see a way out of the suffering and tragedy of this world for everyone, especially now, when every nation on earth is experiencing a common ‘holocaust’.
I have no reason to believe that, but I acknowledge that others might. Who said what and when has had scholars arguing for centuries.
The following is a quote in “Treasury of the Christian Faith” by S. J. Corey and is a reported conversation between Mahatma Gandhi and the former British Viceroy of India, Lord Irwin:
“Lord Irwin paid a visit to the Mahatma in his ashram. During the conversation Lord Irwin put this question to his host: ‘Mahatma, as man to man, tell me what you consider to be the solution to the problems of your country and mine.’ Taking up a little book from the nearby lampstand, Gandhi opened it to the fifth chapter of Matthew and replied, ‘When your country and mine shall get together on the teachings laid down by Christ in this Sermon on the Mount, we shall have solved the problems not only of our countries but those of the whole world.’ That from a Hindu!”
The one with the elephant’s head...right?
What about the ones that “Lord Ganesha” does not protect? Why is he protecting you and not them, do you think?
Why is he not protecting all those in India, where about 80% of the population are Hindus and who have died by the thousands with Covid 19? And how was he protecting those who couldn’t afford overpriced oxygen on the black market when the hospitals ran out?.....or those whose half burned bodies were floating down the Ganges because their families couldn’t pay for the extra wood needed to finish their cremation? Can you explain this to me please?
Again I have to wonder why your gods are blessing you, but not millions of others who worship them too? What are you doing right that they are doing wrong?
I dunno...the Hindu hell looks pretty scary to me...
But I cannot find such a place in the Bible though. "Hell" in the Bible is the grave.....nothing scary about it.
Karma. Clearly you didn’t read the links I posted. Those links answer your questions. The gods are under no obligation to do anything for anyone. But they do for those who do for them. They give their graces and override karma when there is a reason to. I can’t speak for the millions of people Ganesha or any other god or goddess blesses or doesn’t. I don’t know their karmic burdens. I further find your questions about it highly offensive, suggesting it proves the gods don’t exist.. Why does your God give people cancer, kill children in their cribs, not heal diseases? Why does he let people live on the streets? Why isn’t he feeding the starving? I might say that’s better evidence for the non-existence of your God. Oh right... we’re sinful.
Btw, “Hindu hell” is not a universally believed concept. Even for those who do believe in it, it’s not a permanent place. Look up Naraka Naraka - Wikipedia
Now, I’ve about had enough of your continued insincerity and not-so-veiled contempt and mockery of Hinduism. I know Christianity, you don’t know Hinduism, nor are you interested in learning. I’m even unsure of what you know of Christianity.
Viker
Häxan
You'd be surprised if you knew where a lot of the heartbreak and disappointment came from.Since the Bible exposes Christendom as a counterfeit form of Christianity, is it any wonder that people leave feeling 'heartbreak and disappointment'? True Christianity would never do that to a person. Jesus said that 'the truth sets you free'....it doesn't give you the impression that it is some kind of prison from which you must escape.
I can understand why people "lash out" because I did too.....but once I found out what I was recoiling from, I understood that God hates it too.
The Bible tells us never to hold a grudge or to harbor resentment because the main person getting hurt is ourselves.
It was explained to me that "harboring" something was to keep it in a safe place....resentment has no "safe" place....it only leads to hatred and anger.
I also learned that to "entertain" bad thoughts was to invite them in and feed them.....aren't word pictures a powerful thing?
I probably wouldn't you know.....try me....
Viker
Häxan
From the Bible, God ,etc. Not just some followers.
I was born "abominant". Probably why no prayer was answered.