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What are your thoughts about the Catholic Church?
- Thread starter Spiderman
- Start date
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Why do you keep on repeating this falsehood, especially when I showed you from Catholic sources on a previous thread that the RCC do accept other Christian denominations as being part of the "body of Christ"?
The Catholic Curch is fancy. I do not love it or hate it.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
And I taught Catholic theology for 14 years (a long story).
Your selective use of references was biased and self-serving. I provided references that were specific and documented from the Catechism that your view is incorrect.
extra Ecclesiam nulla salus means: "outside the Church there is no salvation". The 1997 Catechism of the Catholic Church explained this as "allsalvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body."
By the content of your responses it is not apparent. You need to go back and carefully read your Catechism. I responded to the reference from one of Pope Francis homilies and clearly showed it was the hope that those outside the Roman Church would become devoted followers a part of the 'body of Christ,' and not that they were already a part of the 'body of Christ.'
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
Here is a story that no one will believe, but that happens a lot on religious topics. There was a Pagan named Simon the Sorcerer who saw the apostles performing miracles with the power of God. Simon tried to pay the apostles to give him that power. Of course they refused. So he decided to make up his own religion using the name of "Christian" but built on his pagan beliefs. Over time and with the help of Satan that church gained power and evolved into the world wide "universal" church we see today. It uses the name "Christian" but is built on pagan ideas. It claims to be built on Simon Peter but the true founder is another Simon. The pagan sorcerer. The "rock" that God's church is built on is Jesus who is called the "rock" many times in the Bible.
This has to be understood the way the Church intends, not through private interpretation.
The Jesuit priest, Leonard Feeney was excommunicated from the Catholic Church for teaching the heresy that there is no salvation outside that church.
These separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance not importance in the mystery of salvation. In fact the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation, whose value derives from that fullness of grace and of truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church.
Dogmatic Constitution Lumen gentium
The Church also recognizes salvation of the Jews through their covenant.
What Is The Bible Definition Of Church? What Is The Biblical View Of Church?
Do you know what definition for church your quote is referencing?
The Biblical issue is a different issue. The beliefs of the Roman Church also include the beliefs of the Church Fathers and the their own definition of the Body of Christ,
Yes as defined in the Catechism of the Roman Church.
Are you saying that the RCC defines church as only those who obey the catechism of it?
Can you prove that opinion?
{I will address this more in a later post, but the Dogmatic Constitution Lumen gentium describes those outside the body of Christ and the Roman Church in terms of potential to be saved ONLY}
We all have only the 'potential' to be saved. The Church does not save, only God saves, and saves who he wills, not confined by the Church.
We all have only the 'potential' to be saved. The Church does not save, only God saves, and saves who he wills, not confined by the Church.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
And did you keep reading, which I posted and linked for you on another thread? Can't you remember that?
If one were to take the above literally without further qualification, one would have to conclude that any Christian who is not Catholic cannot be save-- but that simply is not the teaching of the church that I have shown you before from Catholic links. You might consider checking back on them.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Now you are both insulting and being dishonest as I have previously covered this along with links. For you to continue along this path just tells me that you simply disregard anything that doesn't fit into your bigoted paradigm. .
Again:
The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."324...
To continue on in regards to non-Christians:
Those who have not received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329... -- Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText
So, will you please stop lying as I have shown you this before along with some other links that confirm the fact that there is the possibility of salvation outside the CC, and your utter dishonesty on this subject is nauseating, and I know darn well that the Baha'is didn't teach you to be this way.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
I posted this before to you and I should have to post it again, but here it is:
LOS ANGELES, CA (Catholic Online) - The Holy Father is full of surprises, born of true and faithful humility. On Wednesday he declared that all people, not just Catholics, are redeemed through Jesus, even atheists.
However, he did emphasize there was a catch. Those people must still do good. In fact, it is in doing good that they are led to the One who is the Source of all that is good. In essence he simply restated the hope of the Church that all come to know God, through His Son Jesus Christ.
Francis based his homily on the message of Christ to his disciples taken from the Gospel of Mark. Francis delivered his message by sharing a story of a Catholic who asked a priest if atheists were saved by Christ.
"They complain," Francis said, "If he is not one of us, he cannot do good. If he is not of our party, he cannot do good." He explained that Jesus corrected them, "Do not hinder him, he says, let him do good."
The disciples, Pope Francis explained, "were a little intolerant," closed off by the idea of possessing the truth, convinced that "those who do not have the truth, cannot do good." "This was wrong... Jesus broadens the horizon." Pope Francis said, "The root of this possibility of doing good - that we all have - is in creation."... -- Pope Francis says atheists can do good and go to heaven too! - Living Faith - Home & Family - News - Catholic Online
Francis is following church teaching.
From this mystery of unity it follows that all men and women who are saved share, though differently, in the same mystery of salvation in Jesus Christ through his Spirit. Christians know this through their faith, while others remain unaware that Jesus Christ is the source of their salvation. The mystery of salvation reaches out to them, in a way known to God, through the invisible action of the Spirit of Christ. Concretely, it will be in the sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their conscience that the members of other religions respond positively to God's invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ, even while they do not recognize or acknowledge him as their savior.
This is a play on words that gets you nowhere. I have read all the references for many years. The reference: extra Ecclesiam nulla salus means: "outside the Church there is no salvation". The 1997 Catechism of the Catholic Church explained this as "allsalvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body."
Does not mean those outside the Roman Church and the body of Christ CANNOT be saved. All humans have the potential to be saved regardless of their present belief, ie Protestant or atheist, and it is the hope and desire of the church that all enter the Roman Church will receive the gift of Salvation, and become part of the body of Christ. The doctrine taken in context states that all those who of their own free will remain outside the Roman Church will not be saved,
I already addressed this 'partial' citation of the homely by Pope Francis.
This simply restates the belief that those 'ignorant of the Roman Church' are potentially saved, which I previously addressed a number of times.
You can post it a million times and will not change anything, and I already responded to this previously. This is a partial and somewhat misleading news release concerning the homely by Pope Francis.
Of course, all who 'do good' may potentially be saved, regardless of what the presently believe including atheists, but there is a catch. The question is what is referred to as 'being good.'
First part of this is a rewording of the long standing acceptance of "those who do not have the truth, can do good," which is a simple rewording of the belief that 'those with no knowledge of the truth, the Roman Church and the teachings of the church, can do good and be saved.'
Second, the whole message of the homily by Pope Francis is the hope and desire that all will enter the Roman Church and be saved. The following reflects this hope of the Church . . .
However, he did emphasize there was a catch. Those people must still do good. In fact, it is in doing good that they are led to the One who is the Source of all that is good. In essence he simply restated the hope of the Church that all come to know God, through His Son Jesus Christ.
. . . that all who have knowledge of the true Church will become a part of the body of Christ. Essentially those with knowledge of the true Church and 'do good' must become a part of the Roman Church and the body of Christ, and be saved,