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Featured What are your thoughts about the Catholic Church?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by PopeADope, Apr 6, 2017.

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  1. I love the Church

    5 vote(s)
    8.3%
  2. I like the Church

    9 vote(s)
    15.0%
  3. The Church isn't too bad

    8 vote(s)
    13.3%
  4. I dislike the Church

    27 vote(s)
    45.0%
  5. I hate the Church

    11 vote(s)
    18.3%
  1. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    Well, as Tim Minchin put it in "Pope Song":


    But if you build your Church on claims
    Of ******* moral authority
    And with threats of Hell impose it
    On others in society

    Then you, you mother*******
    Can expect some ******* wrath
    When it turns out you've been ******* us
    In our mother******* *****
     
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  2. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein ᛘᛁᛏᚾᛁᚴᚼᛏ᛫ᛋᚢᚾ
    Premium Member

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    If you weren't a staff member, I'd have you on ignore.
     
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  3. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    Jesus didn't promise anybody a rose garden. He is quoted as predicting quite the opposite.
    Ergo, Easter.
    Tom
     
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  4. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    So you think that the poor opinion of the Catholic Church among many people has more to do with some sort of martyrdom or persecution and not, say, industrial-scale sex abuse and cover-ups?
     
  5. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    No
    Tom
     
  6. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Yes, it is. I'm sorry about that.
     
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  7. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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  8. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    You'll have to excuse me, Penguin. Try as I might, I'm just not able to muster up quite the contempt for Catholicism (or any other religion, for that matter) that you feel. It's just a character flaw, I guess, so please be patient with me.
     
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  9. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    Or the sympathy for its victims, apparently.
     
  10. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I'm sorry you think I'm lacking in compassion. I can assure you that's not the case.
     
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  11. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    My concerns do not involve hate, but for others I cannot speak for.

    Careful, disagreement and differences in belief do not translate to hate. I do not throw stones a Roman Church stained glass windows.

    Since I consider the Roman Church more a very human organization trying to compromise with the modern world to be relevant in a changing world, I do consider them incompetent to deal with the problems of the modern society, and their failings to keep their house in order in the 20th century,

    Hating the Roman Church would be like hating math, because it is meaningless to hate anything. Though I am empathetic to those who feel this hatred, and alienation, because of the behavior of the church in handling their affairs, actually in its whole history.
     
    #351 shunyadragon, Apr 18, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2017
  12. Marty_S

    Marty_S New Member

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    Well, hating anything is in opposition to one of God's commands, so no, I don't hate the church. However, since Constantine created it in 325 a.d., it has been the FIRST pagan sect of Christendom, and it's DEFINATELY NOT CHRISTIAN. It's pagan. It's teachings and beliefs cannot be found in the word of God. Remember that "Satan is misleading the entire inhabited Earth", and false religion and false scriptural translations are his premiere methods of that misleading. All churches are in opposition to God's commands, since He said they are all "false religion". He said, through His son, that the only real religion is what Jesus taught in the first century. ANYTHING ELSE is false religion. Jesus taught against churches, clergy, dogma,doctrine, and the following of any man. All religions of man began with one man. No exceptions, so you're following a man by participating in them. So many commands must be ignored in order to participate in any religion of man. The one Jesus taught has no name, church, clergy, or dogma and doctrine it's own. It's only what God said, and what Jesus taught, and that's it. Nothng more, and nothing less.
     
  13. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    If you look at church history, the church did remain intact both before and after Constantine.

    Canon Law has it that no Catholic doctrine can be accepted if it counters what's in the scriptures. OTOH, some things can be added as the church needed to adjust to varying situations.

    Jesus created his own community of 12 plus others, said where two or more meet in his name there he would also be, plus the apostles appointed others to carry on the faith. Even though there were quite a few local churches over the decades and centuries, the ideal according to Paul was that the church needed to regard itself as "one body", which is a reoccurring theme in his epistles. And the Bible you read is a by-product of the church, btw, and not the other way around.

    BTW, you might consider rereading Acts and see the process of the church (community)-- the "one body"-- being passed on to appointees, who then appointed others. The mark of the early church was not the Bible but was whether your leaders were from their appointees going back to the apostles.
     
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  14. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Couple of questions.

    1. As a whole, what scriptures in your bible is not present in the Catholic bible?

    2. Where in scripture does it advocate a person is christian without being part of the body of christ?

    3. Where in Church doctrine does it say the Church worships anyone other than Christ? (Worship as in putting X as if it were god)

    4. Which pagan tradition does Catholicism come from? and how does the pagan teachings in Catholicism define who Catholics worship?

    5. Anti-catholics claim Catholics worship statues. Where in their doctrine and in their bible does it promote the worship of statues?

    If you are proving Catholicism false, you have to use their scripture and doctrine (not what you see the people do) to compare and contrast what is false and what is not.

    That, and saying the Church is not christian is really insulting the apostles of christ.

    6. Who do you think Catholics worship?
     
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  15. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    I will not go to the extreme considering the Roman Church not Christian, and it is difficult to completely separate the latter Protestant Churches and others from the Roman Church founded by Constantine, and the Hellenist and Roman Church Fathers of the time, simply because they compiled and sorted out the New Testament that all later churches use as scripture to some extent with editing.

    For practical reasons I consider all churches to be symbolically the 'Body of Christ.'
     
  16. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    I consider the time period between the life of Jesus Christ to the formation of the Roman Church by Constantine not continuous and adequately documented. There are no first authors documented for the gospels, and at best they are edited compilation of a series of gospels with a possible Q. The letters of Paul are not well documented, and some are not likely authored by Paul.

    The rebellion and the destruction of the Temple is an event that breaks any possibility of an intact history leading to the life of Jesus.

    There are absolutely no documented testimonials nor historical accounts of the life of Jesus dated to time he lived.

    This is not well documented.
     
  17. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    My conclusions, which are especially reliant on 2nd century writings, say otherwise. An excellent and well-documented book that covers this well is "Tradition In the Early Church" by Dr. Hanson (Anglican). However, one can easily access the writings of the early church leaders from that century and into the third century. If one reads the books of Clement, for just one example, they can read for themselves how the early church saw itself. Even Wikipedia has articles with links that I have posted before. Many theologians believe that the main purpose of the book of Acts was to show the transition of the early church out of eretz Israel and into the diasporah while at the same time showing the continuity of leadership.

    It begs the question as to how could the early church of the apostles supposedly just disappear into thin air without a trace, according to some? I don't buy it, especially since we do have at least some of the second century writings that confirms a continuation.
     
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  18. Musing Bassist

    Musing Bassist In Hac Lacrimarum Valle

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    Glory to the true Church!
     
  19. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Constantine was not the founder of any church:

    Constantine was the first emperor to stop Christian persecutions and to legalize Christianity along with all other religions and cults in the Roman Empire.

    In February 313, Constantine met with Licinius in Milan, where they developed the Edict of Milan. The edict stated that Christians should be allowed to follow the faith without oppression. This removed penalties for professing Christianity, under which many had been martyred previously, and returned confiscated Church property. The edict protected from religious persecution not only Christians but all religions, allowing anyone to worship whichever deity they chose. A similar edict had been issued in 311 by Galerius, then senior emperor of the Tetrarchy; Galerius' edict granted Christians the right to practice their religion but did not restore any property to them. The Edict of Milan included several clauses which stated that all confiscated churches would be returned as well as other provisions for previously persecuted Christians.

    Scholars debate whether Constantine adopted his mother St. Helena's Christianity in his youth, or whether he adopted it gradually over the course of his life. Constantine possibly retained the title of pontifex maximus, a title emperors bore as heads of the ancient Roman religion priesthood until Gratian (r. 375–383) renounced the title. According to Christian writers, Constantine was over 40 when he finally declared himself a Christian, writing to Christians to make clear that he believed he owed his successes to the protection of the Christian High God alone. Throughout his rule, Constantine supported the Church financially, built basilicas, granted privileges to clergy (e.g. exemption from certain taxes), promoted Christians to high office, and returned property confiscated during the Diocletianic persecution. His most famous building projects include the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, and Old Saint Peter's Basilica...
    -- Constantine the Great - Wikipedia
     
  20. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    I believe you just described quit a bit of what Constantine did, but not all, of how Constantine, along with the Roman and Hellenist church fathers, founded the Roman Church, and established the Canon of the New Testament. .
     
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