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Featured What are your thoughts about the Catholic Church?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by PopeADope, Apr 6, 2017.

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  1. I love the Church

    5 vote(s)
    8.3%
  2. I like the Church

    9 vote(s)
    15.0%
  3. The Church isn't too bad

    8 vote(s)
    13.3%
  4. I dislike the Church

    27 vote(s)
    45.0%
  5. I hate the Church

    11 vote(s)
    18.3%
  1. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    Here's what you actually said (in response to shunyadragon's point about the failings of the Church):

    If "the Church" and "the body of Christ" mean the same thing, then what you're asking could be rephrased as "how can you judge the Church based on its political history?" Does that reflect your intended meaning?

    Nonsense. There's a difference between pointing out an institutional, systemic problem and accusing every Catholic of sexual abuse. If you can't see that difference, that's really your problem to sort out.

    Again: this is your problem to sort out. I get that everyone wants to think of their religion as special, but at the end of the day, the Catholic Church is just another religion.


    I'm not one to automatically accept something as true just because the Bible claims that Jesus said it.
     
  2. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    That speech was misrepresented in the media. If you see his full remarks, you'll see that his message is more like "even atheists can go to Heaven... by getting baptized and accepting Christ."
     
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  3. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    This not my view and you are being dishonest and misrepresenting my posts. I have reexplained my view and you are ignoring it.
     
  4. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    Also in the Catechism: that while God instituted the Sacraments, he is not bound by them.
     
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  5. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Sounds like youre taking this personally given your last comment. "My problem" is an insult. Who said it was a problem? I said my experiences not the whole world. You doing what every other christian does..state a opinion as if its fact.

    The Church is the body of christ.

    A body is a group of people. They gather in christ (like minded worship to christ) and Catholics call this a Mass.

    The Church is not political but built up of individuals who make up the body of christ. Its your choice (not your problem) to connect the body with politics. Thats not catholicism. Not what i read in scripture, their ccc, nor in mass.

    Take politics out and people may see there are people being accused by generalizing priest practices as if the Church (the people) had something to do with it.

    Instead, refer to specific people. Have a problem with pope francis, talk about him. Have a problem with priest X or Y, talk about them.

    As soon as you say The Church you are saying all people. It is an insult.

    I gave what I thought of the Church. Its not my thing to put a religion down for its political affiliation. Thats not religion.
     
  6. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    It sounds lie you are taking it very personal. I have not criticized the Roman Church for anything related to political issues and the church.

    I have no problem with Pope Francis, but I do have problems with using a news release to selectively cite a Pope Francis Homely, which as 9-10ths_Penguin stated it misrepresents the homely as a whole. Let us cite the whole homely and straighten things out. I believe I correctly interpreted the citations in the news release.

    We do agree that Roman Church believes it is the body of Christ on earth.

    Our disagreements do not involve insults from my perspective.
     
    #186 shunyadragon, Apr 10, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2017
  7. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    The Catholic Church encourages music and that is a good thing, imo.
     
  8. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    So does the Mormon Church, and many other religious beliefs and denominations.
     
  9. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    You are correct about that. I have just finished reading a book about Gregorian chants* and I discovered that neumes were the beginning of modern written music. Neumes seemed to have been invented by a Catholic monk.

    *but actually it was a murder mystery.
     
  10. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    Kinda like the New Testament, innit?
    Tom
     
  11. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    I was speaking to 9 10th Penguin. I have to reply to you a bit later, but yes I have personal ties with the Church.
     
  12. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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  13. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    How can god not be bound by the sacraments he instituted?
     
  14. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    It insults Catholics who believe in Christ not paganism. That's the issue I always had. I know Catholicism is mixed with paganism. It is a Roman Catholic Church so there will be Roman Paganism in it.

    The Church comes from the apostles not directly from Jesus christ as many protestants say their views come from. Scripture was decided by the Church, written by the apostles who shaped the Church, and interpreted by theologians etc of the Church. Whether one wants to accuse Orthodox Catholics or Roman Catholics is up to the person.

    I just see negativity in anti-church views and comparing it to paganism (as if paganism is some sort of sin) is just, well, wrong.
     
  15. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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  16. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    Believers, such as yourself, of course, believe that the Roman Church is 'Universal' therefore Catholic, but I am not a believer, therefore I do not consider the Roman Church Catholic. I consider it the Roman Church under the Bishop of Rome, one among many churches. Likewise I do not expect the believers share my belief that many aspects of the Roman Church are pagan, or have distinct pagan roots, such as the Divine role of Mary, the Trinity, inherited guilt, and of course Christian holidays, are just a few of the pagan attributes of not only the Roman Church, but to a limited extent many other churches. The nature of God being a Trinity is NOT shared by Judaism at any point in their history, which argues like I do for strict monotheism, and only vaguely interpreted from scripture.

    Actually, it is the Church Fathers the Roman Church appeals to for the doctrine with some references from the NT, which the protestants contest:
    extra Ecclesiam nulla salus means: "outside the Church there is no salvation". The 1997 Catechism of the Catholic Church explained this as "allsalvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body."

    This is, of course, true from the perspective of the Roman Church.

    I can document, as I have previously, concerning the argument that there is definite pagan beliefs in not only the Roman Church, but persists in most Protestant divisions of Christianity.

    The Genesis accounts,which are the basis for the Hellenist pagan view of inherited guilt and thus Original Sin, and the references to polytheism in the Pentateuch and the Psalms, have specific and documented origins in Babylonian, Ugarite, and Canaanite 'pagan' cuneiform texts long before and Hebrew texts existed.
     
    #196 shunyadragon, Apr 10, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2017
  17. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    Actually, periods and other marks in the texts of some of the Dead Sea Scrolls are now considered marks for singing the text.

    http://www.okonsar.com/Documents/DeadSeaScrolls.pdf
     
  18. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    I am not a practicing Catholic. I still love my "ex" but that does not mean we are in a relationship. We have to have both for me to be a believer.
    I never said the Roman Catholic Church is universal. I agree more with Othorodox Church but all liturgical Churches have my respect Catholic and not.

    I never said Roman Catholicism didn't have Pagan roots. (Hence the Roman in their name) Just how protestants compare Catholicism to Paganism makes Paganism sound like a sin. There are Roman Pagans on RF and so far I've seen, I hadn't seen anything sinful about their way of thinking. Maybe Christians don't know what pagan means.

    Not saying you're wrong just wondering what your point is.

    Salvation comes from baptism.
    Being part of Christ body comes from the Church.

    The Church believes to be "fully" in Christ body, you must go through the Church (aka take all the sacraments of Christ given by the Church). They don't say you aren't saved. They just say you're not in full union.

    I gave you Church documents, CCC, and such to say this very thing.

    I never said it wasn't. Most Catholics know Roman practices are in the Church. They just don't call it pagan because it has a negative connotation to it.

    Christianity is in part a Pagan faith. Christians won't agree but there it is.

    The issue I have is, why is that bad?

    So far I read, all the Catholic teachings are in scripture.

    But Catholicism is not sola scriptura. The authority doesn't rest on scripture alone. We can argue forever but you can't change the nature of the Church. Accept it and let it go.
     
  19. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    You're talking about the only church with a seat at the UN. It used to have its own country. It's political by nature.

    When I refer to "the Church", I'm referring to the organization. This doesn't mean that every member is complicit in (or is even aware of) everything that the organization does.

    No, because we're not just talking about problems with individuals. We're talking about systemic problems. Problems with the organization itself.

    And frankly, looking at the problems of the Church as merely problems with specific individuals allowed the sex abuse scandal (as well as many of the Church's other scandals) to grow as big as it did.

    No, I'm not.

    Like it or not, politics are a significant aspect of the Catholic Church. It lobbies governments and still purports to have its own country. The Church is political. Scandal-plagued and political.
     
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  20. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    UN? Dont understand the connection.

    Church means a body of worshipers under one "roof" of like mind. Id use church as an organization and Church as the Body (not organization) no christ.

    All churches have structure to it. Baptist have their own set of problems too. The Catholic church is not special in that regards. Their system doesnt reflect a persons and bodys devotion to christ. That is what the CCC says. Thats their doctrine.

    I cant find the connection of the body of christ with politics. Maybe when I wasnt Catholic Id have that bias but I dont.

    The individuals make up the Church. Its not the body (people as a whole-Mass) thats the problem. Its the individual people. Some priest take advantage of their roles. Many popes have done the same. Thats not a reflection of the body of Christ.

    We are talking about two different things. Cathlicism is a religion.

    Talking about the body. I love among many catholics. Some are twice my age (in their late 70s). One lady cried because people tell her her church is bad and pagan. She said the priest who molested need to go to confession. Id add because of their mishaps, they broken the body of christ.

    The way youre saying is like I can make an investment in the Church and earn interest off my Mass attendences. If there is a grievance, I can file a complaint. Dont worry about management, we trust they will define us as consumers since we paid for our membership in the organization.

    I can see why she cried.
     
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