What are you Teaching your Children for Christmas????

[lewisnotmiller]

Sometimes kids aren't making mistakes. They know what they are doing is wrong. They like to test the boundaries of what they can get away with.

Parents do need to use punishment or the threat of it to let kids know when they are crossing the boundary.
That certainly doesn't mean the love for the children is any less. In fact, part of that love is taking on the responsibility to prepare the child to face society on their own.

Unrelated to Christmas, but I see my job as a parent is to raise healthy, well-balanced and happy adults. Whilst that involves a lot of love, encouragement and support, you're right in that it also requires a willingness to teach right from wrong, and to be the parent in the room (rather than a 'friend' to them).

With relation to Christmas, we try to teach them that giving is more important than receiving, and that the thought and effort put into a gift is what's actually important. The gift itself is a mere concrete expression of that. But kids are kids, and they obviously like receiving things. Whilst I have concerns about consumerism in general, I don't find Christmas any worse in that regard (which might be a somewhat uncommon opinion), and my kids are lucky. They have families who love them, and support and joy around them.

 

[pearl]

When the kids were growing up we played down the consumerism with the help of the observance of Advent. By the time the 'rose' candle was lighted they were really into the Santa visits with their list. I'm sure it was easier then as my children grew up in the late '60's and early '70's.
They were not continuously bombarded with adds from so many sources.

I say Love should be Unconditional. Until we do this, someone will always get hurt at some point in time.

That's the reason my favorite Christmas story for the kids was 'Where Love Is God is There Also', by Tolstoy. Some know the story by another title, 'Martin the Cobbler'.

 

[Arthur P. Dent]

We are all children of God.

Depends on how you wish to define god but as a rule, that is simply a claim with no substantiation

We are all so special in so many ways. We are all important and unique. There is no one in the universe exactly like you nor will there ever be.

100%!!! As a "devout" atheist, I truly feel "blessed" to have already won the ultimate lottery of existence! Granted I am not struggling, being fortunate enough to have had a good career and a solid retirement plan but even those "struggling", still as a rule, have indoor plumbing; potable water on tap; beds more comfortable than many kings and queens throughout history. It is my opinion that so many of us (Americans / 1st World countries) are so busy comparing themselves to others, that they don't enjoy the fruits they have already harvested. I believe Søren Kierkegaard stated it best, "Many of us pursue pleasure with such breathless haste that we hurry past it."

I would go one further and argue everyone on this forum is better off than the vast majority of people on this planet! “Philosophy is at once the most sublime and the most trivial of human pursuits." William James. The fact we have the time and means to even discuss these topics shows that in general, we already have our "3 Hots and a Cot" covered (food and shelter). I absolutely ADORE my life and plan on sucking the bone marrow out of every second afforded to me.

Children, like ourselves, are learning as they go, so mistakes are a part of learning. Point them in the right direction then let them make their mistakes.

R'Amen brother! It is now out job to teach our children what to think... but rather how to think! When it comes to Christmas, my kids know I am an atheist and just celebrate the general holiday of Winter Solstice as a joyous time of year for family. I also have the added benefit of being able to celebrate the ACTUAL birthday of Jimmy Buffett who was born on 25 December. Though I will admit, my wife gets PISSED when I replace the baby jesus (who was NOT born on 25 December) with a picture of Jimmy Buffett in the crib in the manger

As to Santa et al, I have done my best to never lie to my children. When asked if I believe in Santa, I always answer in a non-committal way, i.e. "What do you think?" or "I saw him at the mall with you" but never a definitive answer. My children know they can ask me anything at anytime and I will always answer them as honestly as I can / will never knowingly lie to them. If they ask me something I don't wish to answer, I simply tell them that.

 

[Bird123]

now picture yourself at heaven's gate......
and someone is trying to get Hitler inside

how about the Roman soldier that drove the nails?

and the Devil Himself

Have you learned to Hate?? Have you been taught to Hate?

Each will know God's Unconditional Love that heals all hurt. Children must learn how to create a Heavenly state for themselves before they can truly be in Heaven. This will take many many lessons upon many many lifetimes.

God points the way between lifetimes, however each must choose the lessons to learn through their free choices. In time, everyone will make it, even the ones you might choose to Hate.

Religion creates a we against they. How can you ever reach a Higher Level or a Heavenly state with Hate in your heart? It's not possible. It's not a we against they. It is an US.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

When the kids were growing up we played down the consumerism with the help of the observance of Advent. By the time the 'rose' candle was lighted they were really into the Santa visits with their list. I'm sure it was easier then as my children grew up in the late '60's and early '70's.
They were not continuously bombarded with adds from so many sources.



That's the reason my favorite Christmas story for the kids was 'Where Love Is God is There Also', by Tolstoy. Some know the story by another title, 'Martin the Cobbler'.

I haven't heard of those stories. I'll have to look into them. Thanks.

 

[Bird123]

Depends on how you wish to define god but as a rule, that is simply a claim with no substantiation


100%!!! As a "devout" atheist, I truly feel "blessed" to have already won the ultimate lottery of existence! Granted I am not struggling, being fortunate enough to have had a good career and a solid retirement plan but even those "struggling", still as a rule, have indoor plumbing; potable water on tap; beds more comfortable than many kings and queens throughout history. It is my opinion that so many of us (Americans / 1st World countries) are so busy comparing themselves to others, that they don't enjoy the fruits they have already harvested. I believe Søren Kierkegaard stated it best, "Many of us pursue pleasure with such breathless haste that we hurry past it."

I would go one further and argue everyone on this forum is better off than the vast majority of people on this planet! “Philosophy is at once the most sublime and the most trivial of human pursuits." William James. The fact we have the time and means to even discuss these topics shows that in general, we already have our "3 Hots and a Cot" covered (food and shelter). I absolutely ADORE my life and plan on sucking the bone marrow out of every second afforded to me.


R'Amen brother! It is now out job to teach our children what to think... but rather how to think! When it comes to Christmas, my kids know I am an atheist and just celebrate the general holiday of Winter Solstice as a joyous time of year for family. I also have the added benefit of being able to celebrate the ACTUAL birthday of Jimmy Buffett who was born on 25 December. Though I will admit, my wife gets PISSED when I replace the baby jesus (who was NOT born on 25 December) with a picture of Jimmy Buffett in the crib in the manger

As to Santa et al, I have done my best to never lie to my children. When asked if I believe in Santa, I always answer in a non-committal way, i.e. "What do you think?" or "I saw him at the mall with you" but never a definitive answer. My children know they can ask me anything at anytime and I will always answer them as honestly as I can / will never knowingly lie to them. If they ask me something I don't wish to answer, I simply tell them that.

your quote:I believe Søren Kierkegaard stated it best, "Many of us pursue pleasure with such breathless haste that we hurry past it."
My Answer: Yes, I really like your quote!!! I tell others that you will never realize the Best of Times when you are actually living them.

It's important to keep those eyes open and your mind thinking in life. One can be blind to so very much if we don't.

Yes, I can see you touch many lives. Interaction with others truly supplies knowledge for us all to grow on.

I remember when I was really young and believed in Santa Claus. I started to notice the Santa in every store was different. I really let those parents have it. How could you lie to me like that?? Needless to say, you aren't going to step in that hole by telling the child those stories are the truth.

My next story goes like this: I ran into this couple who said their 30 year old son still beliefs in Santa Claus. Mom said she thinks that is adorable. I told them that he is just pretending for their sake. Mom said: No, he really beliefs in Santa Claus.

Leave it to me to always bring in reality to the picture. I told the couple: If I had a 30 year old son who really still believed in Santa Claus, I would question his intelligence. Surely, He should have figured out by now Santa wasn't real. The coupled just stared at me.

Sadly, I never heard what happen after all that, however everyone has to be better. Reality will always be better. Of course, I have been noted to step on a few toes when bringing reality into the picture. Perhaps I need to work on my delivery.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[blü 2]

I think you've hit the nail on the head regarding behavior and rewards, and self worth equated to possessions. I'll go one step further and say that IMHO, Christmas time and festivities/ celebrations are nowadays no more than another expression of consumerism.

It's true that when the kids were younger, the Tree part of Christmas Day (which comes after the mid-morning coffee, Christmas cake and kipferln, and champagne) tended to be something of a materialistic bloodbath ─ everyone hugely enjoyed it, of course These days perhaps it's more modest but it's still there. There was and will be never a whisper, never an implied condition, about good or bad.

The real thing, as @Bird123 says in the OP, is the spirit of goodwill and inclusion, to the family, the assembled tribe, to absent and missing friends, and to everyone everywhere. I prefer 'goodwill' to 'love' but the result is pretty much the same.

 

[osgart]

I like a lot of the traditions of Christmas. Christmas was more about family, and friends, and unconditional love that you talk so well of.

Like the song goes , to be good for goodness sake.

But I can't help it that unconditional love takes disciplining those under your watch and authority. Saying no, and taking away privileges, rights and things not appreciated is part of the process.

It's so true that the punishment/reward system is not how to show love and grow love. But to me there is effective discipline. I wouldn't be giving anybody anything they didn't deserve in my eyes.

 

[Irate State]

I get what you're saying, and I'm glad that you can derive joyful moments from Christmas time, like those images of family reunited, that you so warmly evoked.
As a child I felt joy too, relatives traveling to our home, seeing cousins and aunties, waiting for the clock to rang midnight (mind you, we celebrate the night you call Christmas Eve, then at midnight the presents are open) but it was for the wrong reason, never felt a connection to the religious aspect to it. Then I grew up, and I was able to pinpoint why. Cultural penetration of festivities I'm not a part of. I'm not a bitter dude telling people what to do, but I feel these festivities are nowadays soulless for lack of a better word, like I said heavily inclined on consumerism, and I don't want any part in it.
Gosh, I sound so angry, but I'm not. I've made my peace with others looking me like a weirdo.

 

[Thief]

Have you learned to Hate?? Have you been taught to Hate?

it seems to me.....God can hate

as for my adaptation to it.....I would hope to have reflection of His mind and heart

might not succeed
but I try

after all....
the angels carry swords
I want to be like them

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Christmas time is near. What is the message children hear? If you aren’t good, you won’t get anything for Christmas. Santa knows who is naughty or nice.



Should the love we get really be based on the actions others want us to take? Should not the love of our child be Unconditional? Shouldn’t we be teaching our children our love is unconditional rather than trying to intimidate or manipulate their choices and actions through the gifts we might give?

As far as the children are concerned, it's not "we", but santa.
It's not "our" (=the parents') love that is conditional, but santa's.
And actually... not his "love" either. As far as I know, kids are told that santa loves ALL children. What is conditional, is how generous he is with gifts and that his generosity is proportional to how good or naughty they were/are.

Having said that, while there is a time and place for everything, in general rewarding good behavior and "punishing" bad behavior is a pretty basic educational system.

The "reward" (or punishment) need not be material in nature in the form of gifts or candy, though.

Children, like ourselves, are learning as they go, so mistakes are a part of learning.

And one of the things they learn is that "mistakes" have, or can have, consequences.

Point them in the right direction then let them make their mistakes.

Sure. Making mistakes is how one learns. But nevertheless, mistakes still have consequences.
There's no reason why there shouldn't be consequences. Just like successes have rewards. In whatever form they may come.

If you violently rob a store and learn from your mistake, do you think the judge will be impressed with your "lesson learned" and not send you to jail?

Love them endlessly and unconditionally without the intimidation or manipulation through gifts.

Attaching consequences to behavior does not, in any way, exclude unconditional love of the children.

When I send my kid to a time-out, do you think I 'stop loving' him while in time out?
When he's been so naughty that I find myself having no other choice but to get mad and raise my voice?

Do you think that I then "hate" them in that moment?
Off course not. Au contraire. It's precisely BECAUSE I love him that I want him to turn out good. I'ld hate myself if I would allow my kid to go on the wrong path and then just "let him" because "hey, we all must make our mistakes". We in fact will all make our mistakes. And they will all be opportunities to learn. And I'll be sure to help in learning that lesson. None of that excludes consequences.

In fact, the consequences are part of the lesson learned.

Many Many Many people get depressed and unhappy at Christmas time. Have they been taught that their self worth or what they have is based on how good they are?

Errr,.... no.
That's because all over the media it is presented as a lovely time to spend with family and friends. And many people do not have family and friends. Or they don't get along with their families. And they spend christmas time alone, or with people they don't like. It has nothing to do with behavior and everything with loneliness.

Has the Christmas teaching that you better be good translated into I’m only good if I possess a lot of things?

No.

Do people look at what they have at Christmas time and conclude they are not good?

No.

What am I giving for Christmas? UNCONDITIONAL LOVE!!

I'm sure the 4-year olds in your care will be overjoyed to get this abstract gift that they don't even understand, while all their little friends from school are overloaded with new toys.

And they'll be left behind wondering what they did wrong.
Ironically, you'ld accomplish the exact opposite of what you are trying to.

Everyone of you out there have all my Love and Kindness!! There are no conditions. It’s for that special you that you are.

There's nothing my kids can do to make me not love them anymore.
But that doesn't mean that behavior doesn't have consequences.

If I find out my kid committed a serious crime, I'ld be the first to hug him and tell them I love him. Then I'ld be the first to call the cops on him.

Because behavior has consequences.
Regardless of how much I love them. Loving them, doesn't mean they can get away with anything.

That’s what I see. It’s very very very clear!! I hope it’s now clear for you too!!

What I think, is that you didn't think this through at all.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

What I would teach my kids if I had them is that Christmas is a time of year when we show our love for one another through giving. And Santa is just a fun make believe story like in many books, not something to be taken seriously.

I always said that too.
And then I had kids.

And then my 3-year old came home all excited after learning about santa from whatever source - it's everywhere after all...

And I simply didn't have the heart to tell him the truth. He would have been devastated.
But I do my best not to explicitly lie about it. When he talks about it, I neither confirm nore deny. I also "play the game", as in: I'll put the gifts there and simply won't say that I did and again neither confirm nore deny when he says it was santa.

He'll figure it out on his own. And the day he directly, and seriously, asks me if it is real, I'll answer honestly.
He's a smart kid, he'll figure it out soon enough.

And when that day comes, I'll be able to keep a straight face and tell him that I never actually lied about it.

 

[Left Coast]

I always said that too.
And then I had kids.

And then my 3-year old came home all excited after learning about santa from whatever source - it's everywhere after all...

And I simply didn't have the heart to tell him the truth. He would have been devastated.
But I do my best not to explicitly lie about it. When he talks about it, I neither confirm nore deny. I also "play the game", as in: I'll put the gifts there and simply won't say that I did and again neither confirm nore deny when he says it was santa.

He'll figure it out on his own. And the day he directly, and seriously, asks me if it is real, I'll answer honestly.
He's a smart kid, he'll figure it out soon enough.

And when that day comes, I'll be able to keep a straight face and tell him that I never actually lied about it.

Awwww. You are absolutely right, my feelings might change if I ever had a child of my own. I like that you don't ever actually endorse the idea, just let him come to his own conclusions.

 

[Bird123]

It's true that when the kids were younger, the Tree part of Christmas Day (which comes after the mid-morning coffee, Christmas cake and kipferln, and champagne) tended to be something of a materialistic bloodbath ─ everyone hugely enjoyed it, of course These days perhaps it's more modest but it's still there. There was and will be never a whisper, never an implied condition, about good or bad.

The real thing, as @Bird123 says in the OP, is the spirit of goodwill and inclusion, to the family, the assembled tribe, to absent and missing friends, and to everyone everywhere. I prefer 'goodwill' to 'love' but the result is pretty much the same.

The one saying it might not imply the conditions about good or bad, however the words speak for themselves. I think they have a more far reaching influence that some might realize. I have seen people making judgment calls on their worth depending on what possessions they have. This is especially around Christmas time.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

it seems to me.....God can hate

as for my adaptation to it.....I would hope to have reflection of His mind and heart

might not succeed
but I try

after all....
the angels carry swords
I want to be like them

Seems the view you have of God comes from mankind's holy books. Mankind's holy books reflect mankind more than anything else. I have found no religion that really understands God at all.

God does not hate. What use would a sword be to any angel? To understand God one must let go of the petty things mankind holds so dear. In this case, hating, ruling, controlling, and intimidating. Still, there are many other petty things one must never value. Look to a Higher Level.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

As far as the children are concerned, it's not "we", but santa.
It's not "our" (=the parents') love that is conditional, but santa's.
And actually... not his "love" either. As far as I know, kids are told that santa loves ALL children. What is conditional, is how generous he is with gifts and that his generosity is proportional to how good or naughty they were/are.

Having said that, while there is a time and place for everything, in general rewarding good behavior and "punishing" bad behavior is a pretty basic educational system.

The "reward" (or punishment) need not be material in nature in the form of gifts or candy, though.



And one of the things they learn is that "mistakes" have, or can have, consequences.




Sure. Making mistakes is how one learns. But nevertheless, mistakes still have consequences.
There's no reason why there shouldn't be consequences. Just like successes have rewards. In whatever form they may come.

If you violently rob a store and learn from your mistake, do you think the judge will be impressed with your "lesson learned" and not send you to jail?



Attaching consequences to behavior does not, in any way, exclude unconditional love of the children.

When I send my kid to a time-out, do you think I 'stop loving' him while in time out?
When he's been so naughty that I find myself having no other choice but to get mad and raise my voice?

Do you think that I then "hate" them in that moment?
Off course not. Au contraire. It's precisely BECAUSE I love him that I want him to turn out good. I'ld hate myself if I would allow my kid to go on the wrong path and then just "let him" because "hey, we all must make our mistakes". We in fact will all make our mistakes. And they will all be opportunities to learn. And I'll be sure to help in learning that lesson. None of that excludes consequences.

In fact, the consequences are part of the lesson learned.




Errr,.... no.
That's because all over the media it is presented as a lovely time to spend with family and friends. And many people do not have family and friends. Or they don't get along with their families. And they spend christmas time alone, or with people they don't like. It has nothing to do with behavior and everything with loneliness.





No.



No.



I'm sure the 4-year olds in your care will be overjoyed to get this abstract gift that they don't even understand, while all their little friends from school are overloaded with new toys.

And they'll be left behind wondering what they did wrong.
Ironically, you'ld accomplish the exact opposite of what you are trying to.



There's nothing my kids can do to make me not love them anymore.
But that doesn't mean that behavior doesn't have consequences.

If I find out my kid committed a serious crime, I'ld be the first to hug him and tell them I love him. Then I'ld be the first to call the cops on him.

Because behavior has consequences.
Regardless of how much I love them. Loving them, doesn't mean they can get away with anything.



What I think, is that you didn't think this through at all.

If you strike your child in punishment, are you teaching your child it is ok to attempt to control the actions of others through pain? On the other hand, if you teach your child then allow them to choose, they learn the actual lesson needed when the results return.

People are put in jail every day. How much effort is taken to Discover the underlying causes of crime resulting in the prevention of crime? What is being taught with the lock them up and throw away the key method? Revenge, Pay back and no one really cares? This is why crime just repeats and repeats. If one does the very same thing, how can one expect different results.

Loose pay back and the need to hurt others. Fix the problems instead!! Teach your children rather than intimidate or coerce them through pain that has nothing to do with their actions or choices. A parent needs to out think their children rather than simply react as you said sometimes with anger.

Choose: How would you really want to be raised, with a stick or Unconditional Love along with thinking rather than reacting? The choice is in your hands!!

So much is passed through the generations. So many petty things are passed along as well. What are we really teaching others then by repetition teaching ourselves??

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Vinayaka]

Back when I was teaching in a secular system dominated by Christians, and after my standard reminder that it wasn't celebrated by everyone, I'd ask, "So what did you give for Christmas?" to initiate an ethical discussion on giving versus getting. Some kids hated me, others like it. Many years we picked a charity and raised money as a class.

 

[blü 2]

The one saying it might not imply the conditions about good or bad

I meant that at our Christmases, the threat has never been made that any gift is or gifts are conditional on the good behavior of the kid.

Anyway, goodwill towards all our tribe and all our fellow-humans is the key, the fellowship of Man.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Only the most naive adults believe that God’s love, in its fullest form, is unconditional. However, an aspect of God’s love is unconditional.

Therefore, since developing children involves preparing them and aligning them with reality, we should be teaching them that love is both unconditional and conditional. The aspects of the Santa story that communicate the idea that rewards are based on behavior is completely valid.

Discerning how to appropriately balance out unconditional love with punishment is part of the responsibility of being a parent. To never withdraw unconditional love and to never punish your child is to fail as a parent in the responsibility of aligning the child with reality.

If what I am saying in this post seems paradoxical, then that means you are receiving the intended message. Struggle with the paradox if you want to be a good parent.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Awwww. You are absolutely right, my feelings might change if I ever had a child of my own. I like that you don't ever actually endorse the idea, just let him come to his own conclusions.

Yeah, I like to make him come to his own conclusions in whatever context. It's interesting actually... As Neil deGrass Tyson once said, kids are all like little scientists. They are out exploring and learning about the world around them. Everything they do is kind of an experiment. When a 6-year old is banging a wooden toy on the table, it's learning about collision, wear and tear, ..the general effects of banging objects together.

And parents are like "no! stop! you're gonna damage the table!". But you gotta let them. You have to feed curiosity, not kill it. The only moment to intervene there is if the tabletop is made out of glass - that would be to dangerous - or if it's a 10.000 dollar designer table, that would be to costly

Irrelevant sidepoint: I was talking about Santa, but over here in Belgium, it's actually Saint Nicholas. He's coming tonight actually... I just finished setting up. My living room is currently a feast of candy, chocolate and toys
And tomorrow, my kids are gonna go nuts and I get to play with a cool lego train all day, hahaha!

But Santa is rather just a TV character and a fairy tale. Christmas here is more about the exchange of gifts within the family, including the children. We buy them beforehand, wrap them up and put them under our tree. The kids love it. They put great effort into finding the perfect gift for their cousins or friends. And then when the family comes over for christmas dinner, they'll put their gifts under it as well.

And then when everybody is good and drunk, the gift giving commences.

lol













I just realized that won't be happening this year and I'm sad