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What are the Central Positive Messages you Learned from the Quran?

Discussion in 'Quranic Debates' started by icehorse, May 12, 2014.

  1. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Agreed.
     
  2. ametist

    ametist Active Member

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    It isnt for using your brain you go to hell. You can happen to criticize the book while reading. You go to hell for not asking god's protection from satan on that same road of constant critique and for not asking god's mercy and for not seeing it as one true god. And you should also pray to god for being the one who believes in one true god because you cant tell that if you ever deviate from it. So humas are nothing without their prayers. If you dont use your mind you cant come to that conclusion. Still being in that conclusion may not sound 'positive'.but if it is so, then it is so.
     
  3. ametist

    ametist Active Member

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    True. Critique and threat on non believers is frequent. While you are reading those parts your heart automatically falls into a praying state if you are a believer and those parts increases heart of those believers. So they are mercy to them. If you are a nonbeliever you dont think they are gonna happen to you or they are true so they are nothing to you. But do they sound 'positive'? No.
    What matters is that you understand without help and friendship of one true god you are nothing. This also may not sound 'positive'.
     
    #243 ametist, Jul 15, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2014
  4. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    Hi Ametist -

    Do you know the idea of "thought crimes"? (It's not a common idea.) The thing is that it doesn't matter how much I pray. According to the Quran, Allah knows if I don't believe. So I can pray all I want, but if I don't believe the prayers, Allah will convict me of a "thought crime". Correct? In other words, Allah knows if a person is being a hypocrite.
     
  5. ametist

    ametist Active Member

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    It isnt expected anyone to pray if they dont believe that it is gonna work.
    Allah knows it if you dont believe or if your belief is accurate or not. This is also right.

    I dont know if god will convict those who admit that they believe but momentarily fall into the trap of having other gods beside it (an example of thought crime in islam) but sincerely try not to do it and pray to god for such a thing not to happen.
     
  6. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    Well someone like me doesn't have any gods at all, and if I said otherwise or I pretended to pray, I'd be lying.
     
  7. Scimitar

    Scimitar Eschatologist

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    I thought you was engaging with me in the other thread..... why did u decide to start this topic and ignore the other one. I was waiting patiently for you to come back but all I got back from u was a visitor message telling me it was a nice convo... I was only getting started and could have given you contextual understanding on your questions regarding the Quran.

    Not opinions.... but the contextual understanding. After our last tete a tete I was under the impression you understood why its important. Especially after the examples I gave you in science. Why are you still pursuing a flawed train of thought brother icehorse?

    I hope you are not being disingenuous with your intentions here.

    Looking forward to reading you soon.

    Scimi
     
    #247 Scimitar, Jul 25, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2014
  8. Draupadi

    Draupadi Active Member

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    @Icehorse- I don't get it. This thread is about central positive messages from the Quran. And if anyone mentions any you dismiss them as being common and others present the negative ones. I am telling these people, are you sure you are serious about this thread?
     
  9. Scimitar

    Scimitar Eschatologist

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    Icehorse... u've had plenty of time to return back to my post... im guessing you will ignore it now I am on your "new" thread and go start yet another thread in clear avoidance of having to debate me.... I really do hope you are not a troll but all the evidence is starting to stack up neatly against you here.

    Please respond to my last post in this thread. ... you're clearly playing a very foolish game.

    Scimitar
     
    #249 Scimitar, Jul 25, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2014
  10. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    Hi Draupadi,

    When I framed the OP I did my best to frame the question to support a good discussion. As the discussion has proceeded I can see that I might frame the OP slightly differently if I had it to do over again. But I don't see the harm in refining the OP now...

    I might ask "What positive messages did you learn from the Quran that were not already well known before the Quran was written down?"

    So, for example, I agree that charity is a positive value. And it's fine that the Quran advises Muslims to be charitable. But the idea of charity existed in many societies long before the Quran was written.
     
  11. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    Scimitar,

    In the interest of positive relationships, I'll head back to the other thread. That said, I think your accusations are way off base.
     
  12. Sega

    Sega Member

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    The Quran doesn't claim to have been something new. It's just a reminder for us.

    Say: "We believe in God, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Ibraheem [Abraham], Isma'il [Ishmael], Ishaaq [Isaac], Ayuub [Jacob], and the Tribes, and in the (the Books) Given to Musa [Moses], Isa [Jesus] And the Propehts, From their Lord" We make no distinction Between one and anotehr Among them, and to God do we Bow our will.

    Surah 4, Nisa.

    This is probably not the best ayah I could have quoted, but here, we can clearly see how it was sent to times before Muhammed.
     
  13. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    Hi Sega,

    I'd feel differently if the Quran's back cover copy read:

    "A compendium of positive values that humans have learned over the years".

    Instead, the back cover copy is more like:

    "This is the perfect, final, unalterable word of God and you humans wouldn't have any morals or ethics without God".

    I think that's nonsense.
     
  14. Sega

    Sega Member

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    In fact, I would have to say that it's kind of like that, but it's not as extreme as you're making it to be.

    I have a feeling that perhaps your copy of the Quran says something like 'This is the perfect, final, unalterable word of God', and then you decided to add 'you humans wouldn't have any morals or ethics without God' to make this thread a bit juicier.

    In the Quran, we learn that in various occasions and times, people have been sent messengers to guide them. Some of which have gone astray after their prophet and for that reason, a new one was sent to them, teaching them to abstain from their ignorant ways. Some people learned from their prophet and benefited, others disobeyed.

    From your profile, I'm able to see that you're a 'spiritual reasonist'. Knowing that, I wonder why you think it is so wrong that God had taught us what is right from what is wrong. I take it you believe in the creation of Adam, the first man. God had taught him what was right from wrong and gave him free will and intelligence, just like we all do. From a religious point of view, it isn't that humans just learned these things on their own and started to be the beings that are able to learn things on their own with time, but we were given knowledge and prophets but sometimes fall short of what we learned. Since we're only humans, and we make mistakes, we are prone to disobedience and deviation from what we were taught to do.

    So what I'm trying to get to is that God has started off with ethics and morals to start off with, but since we aren't perfect, we have on many occasions strayed away from them, and we were given prophets and messengers to guide us back on that path. Now, may I ask, what is so wrong with that?
     
  15. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    Hi Sega,

    As I define "religion" and "spirituality" I can claim to recognize that we have a spiritual aspect AND that spirituality is COMPLETELY INDEPENDENT of religion.

    I am not a fan of religion at all. I don't think anybody's version of God created morality or ethics or scripture. I think we developed morality and ethics as we evolved, and that some humans a long time ago made up scripture and usurped mankind's morals and ethics and tried to claim that they came from their man-made book, not from the collective wisdom of their ancestors.

    As evidence Sega, I'll claim that if you - personally - feel that the Bible is a peaceful book or that the Quran is a peaceful book, you arrived at that conclusion based on morality you learned elsewhere. Armed with fore-knowledge of morality, you were able to look through your scripture of choice and find verses here and there that support what you already knew going in.

    In other words, this is good news for you - you don't need a book to teach you how to be a good person, you already know how!
     
  16. Sega

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    I'm afraid I could use this same argument against you, thus making it pointless.

    Knowing violence in the world around you, and what you know to be violent, you use what you thought was a violent book, the Quran I presume, and use verses you found to be promoting violence to support what you already knew to be violent going in.

    Now, going back to what you were saying about the Quran being nothing new, I guess you can concede in that argument. It never did say what in it is so new, earlier I had said how it was a reminder for a people's that had gone astray.

    To those of us who had been fasting in the month of Ramadan.

    “O you who believe! Observing As-Sawm (the fasting) is prescribed for you as it was prescribed for those before you, that you may become pious”

    [al-Baqarah 2:183]
     
  17. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    The difference is that I don't claim the book to be perfect and I don't claim that it - or any other scripture - is the source of morality. Perhaps I misunderstood you? I thought you said that you learned about morality from the Quran?

    So when I hear ISIS or Boko Haram or Hamas tell the world that they are following Islam, their messages line up perfectly with many messages I read in the Quran. They are making claims that are extremely easy to defend.

    So my conclusion is that since Hamaa-types can get their marching orders from the Quran, and you can find peaceful messages from the same book, it's not as much about the book as it is what you bring to the book. It strikes me that you're giving the book power and credit it doesn't deserve. The peaceful values you find in the book you brought in with you. How is that not the case?
     
  18. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    Typically I would agree with you - the psychological phrase is "confirmation bias" - we find what confirms our opinions.

    But while I think it's typically true, I don't think it's necessarily true for all. There are some, perhaps few, who can approach scripture with what I could call a scientific (open minded) attitude.
     
  19. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    We could look at this question from the perspective of attribution. Can we all agree that the following list of people all made huge contributions to modern society and that we - universally - give them credit? In other words we give attribution to these people:

    Plato, Galileo, Omar Khayyam, Newton, Einstein, the list goes on and on.

    What did you learn from the Quran that you can attribute to the Quran. For example if you say the Quran teaches charity, well that's fantastic, but we can find examples of teaching charity long before the Quran came along. So we cannot "attribute" charity to the Quran. In this case the Quran just passed along a good idea.

    (BTW, I feel this question could equally well be applied to other scripture. In other words I think ALL scripture borrows from existing morals and tries to claim attribution.)

    So what positive values did you learn from the Quran that can't be attributed to earlier wisdom?
     
  20. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    I don't know of anything utterly unique. But that is also true of the New Testament in the Bible. To me, all the major scriptures of the world religions are like different clothes that the Truth wears. They look different and may emphasize different aspects but the essential truth is the same.
     
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