What are the best arguments in favor of theism and against atheism?

[Lorgar-Aurelian]

You are right, it is called a conversation. But it seems to fit this thread's subject well enough, so allow me:

The way I see it, deciding whether there is any "real" deity is just not something to get too worked up about. It is not a big deal either way, even conceivably.

The one reason for agreeing with anyone on that matter is not a constructive reason: so that people can speak on each other's behalf despite not really having a good understanding and appreciation of each other's stances and values. When such understanding exists, there is no need whatsoever for bothering with a conception of god as an intermediary. And, almost certainly, there is no convenience in making the attempt, either.

So it seems clear to me that we should let matters of conception, use and belief in god-concepts for the individual to decide as he or she sees fit, and deal with the true subject of religion with more effective concepts that have clearer meanings when used between individuals.

There are those who believe that it is important to accept or pursue the "correct" God. I find that entirely puerile and unconvincing, among other reasons because the implication is that God is severely flawed. No one should waste any time with such pointless considerations, IMO.

I've often been of the opinion that any deity would find little reason to interfere in the lives of mortals other than sheer boredom. The fact that there is little to no evidence for any god existing also adds to that.

All that being said I just like talking about religion and atheism/theism so you know. Not really taking it all that seriously to begin with.

 

[Nous]

But where did that cause come from?
If something cannot be created from nothing then nothing can exist as far as I see it.
I always found the claims from Christians that god has always existed or exists outside of time as a weird concept.

In the scheme of causes and effects, the "first cause" is just that--it doesn't have a cause because it is the first one.

If something cannot be created from nothing then nothing can exist as far as I see it.

Then I guess the first cause, being something, solves that problem.

 

[Nous]

Atheists absolutely know in their mind that there is no god. Theists absolutely know in their mind that there is a god. Neither side wants to hear from the other side and nothing will change their minds.

I think the existence of this thread disproves your claim.

 

[Nous]

This makes no sense.

That's correct. It makes the same sort of sense as asking what was the cause of the first cause. Who was your wife before your first wife?

Various quantum fields spread out through all space and just exist.

Quantum fields obviously can be caused. So there is no reason to believe that quantum fields are some kind of intrinsically uncaused thing.

 

[Lorgar-Aurelian]

Meh

What of you brother Scotsman? Would you mind defending your faith? I would greatly appreciate hearing something from one of our pagan brothers. Even if he doesn't worship the ruinous powers like he should...

 

[Nous]

I think one of the bigger issues I've encountered with arguments for God are normally deistic rather than theistic. It is useful to try and establish the idea of a Deistic God so you can at least start from the point "there is a god" before you try to make too many leaps.

I agree. It's the definition problem.

 

[Nous]

Is there any chance that I might convince you of the merits of apatheism and/or ignosticism?

I would definitely consider your arguments for the merits of "apatheism and/or ignosticism"--whatever that is.

 

[Lorgar-Aurelian]

I would definitely consider your arguments for the merits of "apatheism and/or ignosticism"--whatever that is.

It's kind of a fancy way of saying "Meh."

 

[LuisDantas]

I would definitely consider your arguments for the merits of "apatheism and/or ignosticism"--whatever that is.

Apatheism is, in essence, the claim that it does not matter whether there is a deity.

Ignosticism is the claim that it does not really make sense to state anything about the existence of a deity until and unless an explicit declaration of what a deity would be like is made.

 

[Nous]

You are right, it is called a conversation. But it seems to fit this thread's subject well enough, so allow me:

The way I see it, deciding whether there is any "real" deity is just not something to get too worked up about. It is not a big deal either way, even conceivably.

The one reason for agreeing with anyone on that matter is not a constructive reason: so that people can speak on each other's behalf despite not really having a good understanding and appreciation of each other's stances and values. When such understanding exists, there is no need whatsoever for bothering with a conception of god as an intermediary. And, almost certainly, there is no convenience in making the attempt, either.

So it seems clear to me that we should let matters of conception, use and belief in god-concepts for the individual to decide as he or she sees fit, and deal with the true subject of religion with more effective concepts that have clearer meanings when used between individuals.

There are those who believe that it is important to accept or pursue the "correct" God. I find that entirely puerile and unconvincing, among other reasons because the implication is that God is severely flawed. No one should waste any time with such pointless considerations, IMO.

Oh, I see this post now.

I agree with you here. Deciding things about "God" seems to halt the creative process.

 

[Cobol]

Quantum fields obviously can be caused.

It appears you don't know what your talking about. Obviously you didn't read my entire post.

It makes the same sort of sense as asking what was the cause of the first cause.

Some people think they can escape logic.

 

[Geoff-Allen]

Interesting thread!

I personally do believe in a higher power.

That wasn't always the case - far from it. I was very angry & cynical for many years. If you had told me I would get RIGHT into meditation & reading books like "Conversations with God" & treating everyone with kindness & compassion ... well ... I would have absolutely laughed in your face!

The number of spiritual experiences reported must mean something. Many people report that their lives have been transformed - I would include myself amongst them. If we are all merely "mistaken" or "deluded", that is more amazing than if there is a God.

Just don't ask me why I think some people benefit from such experiences while most people don't - it's one of life's big mysteries.

Here's a site that chronicles many spiritual experiences - make of it what you will -

http://www.spiritual-experiences.com/real-spiritual-stories.php

All the best!

 

[Nous]

It appears you don't know what your talking about. Obviously you didn't read my entire post.

Perhaps you think your claims are not worthy of explanation.

Evidently you don't disagree that the energy of a closed system is not created within the system.

 

[Nous]

Interesting thread!

I personally do believe in a higher power.

That wasn't always the case - far from it. I was very angry & cynical for many years. If you had told me I would get RIGHT into meditation & reading books like "Conversations with God" & treating everyone with kindness & compassion ... well ... I would have absolutely laughed in your face!

The number of spiritual experiences reported must mean something. Many people report that their lives have been transformed - I would include myself amongst them. If we are all merely "mistaken" or "deluded", that is more amazing than if there is a God.

Just don't ask me why I think some people benefit from such experiences while most people don't - it's one of life's big mysteries.

Here's a site that chronicles many spiritual experiences - make of it what you will -

http://www.spiritual-experiences.com/real-spiritual-stories.php

All the best!

Geoff-Allen, would you mind telling us at what age your "experience" or "transformation" occurred?

 

[Geoff-Allen]

Geoff-Allen, would you mind telling us at what age your "experience" or "transformation" occurred?

Thanks for your interest.

It was about 25 years ago. So I must have been around 33.

I was raised a Catholic but never really believed it - I thought religion was a crutch for pathetic and weak people. So I was very angry and cynical.

I was diagnosed with schizophrenia in 1983 so officially my experience was delusional.

It happened when I was on a psych ward - I thought I would be the VERY last person on this planet who would EVER have a religious experience!

I entered an altered state of consciousness - I felt TOTALLY at peace and waves of euphoria swept over me. I felt little need for sleep or food.

I thought it would ALWAYS be like that but it has faded somewhat. I still enjoy peace of mind but not quite as intense euphoria.

Hope that makes some sense - I do tend to ramble.

As I said I would not expect my experience 2 convert anyone just as nothing anyone said to me before the experience would have convinced me there is a higher power - I had to experience it directly to change my mind.

I have NO idea why some people have leave them in no doubt while most people struggle along as best they can ...

Hope that clears things up - it is hard to imagine some things unless you have experienced them personally.

Cheers

 

[Cobol]

Perhaps you think your claims are not worthy of explanation.
Evidently you don't disagree that the energy of a closed system is not created within the system.

The shorter the time period over which we make a measurement, the more uncertain is the value of the energy. This explains the existence of virtual particles. They can spontaneioulsly appear out of empty space, but over only a limited amount of time. One virtual particle has positive energy and one has negative energy, so the average energy remains zero.

Virtual particles can come from nothing (empty space). Physicists have speculated that the big bang was a quantum fluctuation, effectively creating our universe.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

What of you brother Scotsman? Would you mind defending your faith? I would greatly appreciate hearing something from one of our pagan brothers. Even if he doesn't worship the ruinous powers like he should...

Nah. Defending my faith implies I think it's threatened by people who believe differently. It's not and I don't.

 

[Lorgar-Aurelian]

Nah. Defending my faith implies I think it's threatened by people who believe differently. It's not and I don't.

Aww but I wanted to know more about it. Now you've made me have a primarch sized pout.

 

[Quintessence]

Were I to judge atheism as the direct contrary of my particular type of theism, the implications are more than a little bit unflattering. It's why I don't talk about it much, and I'm not sure what value the discussion would have (I'm certainly not interested in arguing about it). When it comes down to it, there is only one "argument" that matters:

You want to.

 

[MJFlores]

What arguments do you believe point to there being a God or gods and why do you think this makes more sense than the idea that there are no gods? I am personally a non-believer but I would greatly like to hear arguments against this position and possibly find a religion that at least makes sense.
.

Gods? Would they fight each other when we have multiple gods? They would fight who would be God of all gods or who gets the largest adulation, then one would be envious or the other would be scheming how to be in control. - isn't that Greek/Roman mythology even Marvel Comic gods - Thor, Odin and Loki?

There is only one God. There has to be. Why?

Hebrews 3:4 Jubilee Bible 2000 (JUB)
For every house is built by someone, but he that created all things is God.

Just joined yesterday.
I have included a video below addressing the question about the existence of God. I hope you like it.