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What about the world today indicates to apocalyptic Christians that this is the actual end time?

Buddha Dharma

Dharma Practitioner
As opposed to all the times Christians thought in the past that the end was upon the world.

We even see from the New Testament seeming indication that the apostles thought the end was near coming. Perhaps even Jesus himself:

Matthew 10:23, Matthew 16:27-28, Luke 21:22
1 John 2:18, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

In addition, Christians have throughout history believed the end was near.

The present day idea that Jesus is coming soon seems to have been sparked by John Nelson Darby, the Millerites, and Ellen G. White: founder of Seventh Day Adventism.

White founded the SDA church on the coattails of the Great Disappointment: Great Disappointment - Wikipedia

John Miller had been wrong about the return of Christ, but White and her Adventist followers remained convinced the second coming was near.

After this 19th century wave of millenialism, Charles Taze Russel founded the Bible Students, which was reorganized into the Jehovah's Witnesses movement.

The Jehovah's Witnesses wrongly predicted the end of the world and events that were to herald the end a number of times before reworking their understanding into a gradual unfolding of Christ's coming.

In light of all this information- what is it about today's world and events that so strongly convinces apocalyptic-minded Christians the end is upon us?

Why do they think their understanding relating to the present time is correct, when others have been wrong?
 

Phantasman

Well-Known Member
Everything you summarize is correct. And I am glad you chose the word "apocalyptic" Christians instead of just Christian.

The non canon gospels do not indicate any end times, or a rapture. Probably why the catholic church fathers would follow or use it. Fear is a great motivator of humans. Set up a system like they made, and back it up with murder if you don't follow it, and you have a strong following. I do not see that as the way of the Spirit, especially when love is it's greatest lessons to follow it.

How many millions of people throughout history believed they were living in the end times. Probably all of them when a war started or disease overpowered them. In the 70s, they were preaching AIDs was a tool to destroy man, especially because of the way it was transmitted.

A person who follows the gospel of Christ isn't a teacher, as much as an example. The Spirit teaches, And from what I see in the "big picture", if there is any apocalyptic event, man, or the god of this world, will cause it. Not the Father.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
“Why do (Christians) think their understanding relating to the present time is correct, when others have been wrong?”

World conditions, coupled with people’s lousy attitudes in general.


I’m not too familiar with Millerite or SDA understanding.
But regarding JW’s, 1914 marks the beginning of the Last Days.

First of all, the “Last Days” wouldn’t necessarily be short. In fact, the Last Days in Noah’s time lasted 120 years.

That being said, here’s an excerpt from....

Reply To: 1914 – what happened? – Heaven Net

...that provides some interesting quotes and assessments:

“The New York World of August 30, 1914, explains: “The terrific war outbreak in Europe has fulfilled an extraordinary prophecy. For a quarter of a century past, through preachers and through press, the ‘International Bible Students’ [as Jehovah’s Witnesses were then known] . . . have been proclaiming to the world that the Day of Wrath prophesied in the Bible would dawn in 1914.”–The World, a New York newspaper, August 30, 1914.

As it turned out, these things were only a “beginning of pangs of distress.”

“For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress. (Mat 24:7)

Yes, their expectations were wrong. They expected that year to be the end, but came to believe that that year was only the beginning of what the Bible calls the “end of this system of things” or the “last days.”

Due to their zeal, true Christians have at times had wrong expectations.

Examples:
Shortly before Jesus died, his disciples “were imagining that the kingdom of God was going to display itself instantly.” Then, after his resurrection they asked whether the Kingdom would be set up right away. Also, about ten years before Peter wrote his second letter, some were “excited” by “a verbal message” or “a letter,” reputedly from the apostle Paul or his companions, “to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here.” (Luke 19:11; 2 Thessalonians 2:2; Acts 1:6)
They were a bit early.

Anyway, How do secular authorities or historians view 1914?

“Ever since 1914, everybody conscious of trends in the world has been deeply troubled by what has seemed like a fated and predetermined march toward ever greater disaster. Many serious people have come to feel that nothing can be done to avert the plunge towards ruin.”—Bertrand Russell, The New York Times Magazine, September 27, 1953.

The London Evening Star commented that the conflict “tore the whole world’s political setup apart. Nothing could ever be the same again. If we all get the nuclear madness out of our systems and the human race survives, some historian in the next century may well conclude that the day the world went mad was August 4, 1914.”–London Evening Star, quoted in the New Orleans Times-Picayune, August 5, 1960, and The Seattle Times, August 4, 1960, p. 5.

“Half a century has gone by, yet the mark that the tragedy of the Great War [World War I, which started in 1914] left on the body and soul of the nations has not faded . . . The physical and moral magnitude of this ordeal was such that nothing left was the same as before. Society in its entirety: systems of government, national borders, laws, armed forces, interstate relations, but also ideologies, family life, fortunes, positions, personal relations—everything was changed from top to bottom. . . . Humanity finally lost its balance, never to recover it to this day.”—General Charles de Gaulle, speaking in 1968 (Le Monde, Nov. 12, 1968, p. 9).

“The last completely ‘normal’ year in history was 1913, the year before World War I began.”—Editorial in the Times-Herald, Washington, D.C., March 13, 1949.

“Looking back from the vantage point of the present we see clearly today that the outbreak of World War I ushered in a twentieth-century ‘Time of Troubles’—in the expressive term of the British historian Arnold Toynbee—from which our civilization has by no means yet emerged. Directly or indirectly all the convulsions of the last half century stem back to 1914.”—The Fall of the Dynasties: The Collapse of the Old Order (New York, 1963), Edmond Taylor, p. 16.

No previous war in history compared with it. It was so different that historians of that time called it The Great War.
Of it, an encyclopedia states: “World War I took the lives of twice as many men as all major wars from 1790 to 1913 put together.” It noted that total military casualties were over 37,000,000, and added: “The number of civilian deaths in areas of actual war totaled about 5,000,000. Starvation, disease, and exposure accounted for about 80 of every 100 of these civilian deaths. Spanish influenza, which some persons blamed on the war, caused tens of millions of other deaths.–The World Book Encyclopedia, 1966, Vol. 20, p. 377.
World War! Pestilences! Food shortages!

“Everything would get better and better. This was the world I was born in. . . . Suddenly, unexpectedly, one morning in 1914 the whole thing came to an end.”—British statesman Harold Macmillan, The New York Times, November 23, 1980.

“Increasingly, the 75-year period from 1914 to 1989, covering two world wars and the cold war, is being seen by historians as a single, discrete epoch, a time apart in which much of the world was fighting war, recovering from war or preparing for war.”—The New York Times, May 7, 1995.
“The whole world really blew up about World War I and we still don’t know why. Before then, men thought that utopia was in sight. There was peace and prosperity. Then everything blew up. We’ve been in a state of suspended animation ever since . . . More people have been killed in this century than in all of history.”—Dr. Walker Percy, American Medical News, November 21, 1977.

“It is indeed the year 1914 rather than that of Hiroshima which marks the turning point in our time, for by now we can see that . . . it was the first world war that ushered in the era of confused transition in the midst of which we are floundering.”—Dr. René Albrecht-Carrié, Barnard College, The Scientific Monthly, July 1951.

“In 1914 the world lost a coherence which it has not managed to recapture since. . . . This has been a time of extraordinary disorder and violence, both across national frontiers and within them.”—The Economist, London, August 4, 1979.

“World War I and its aftermath led to the greatest economic depression in history during the early 1930’s. The consequences of the war and the problems of adjustment to peace led to unrest in almost every nation.”–The World Book Encyclopedia (1966, Vol. 20) on page 379 under its heading “World War I”

Author Maurice Genevoix, who was a military officer during that war, said of it: “Everyone agrees in recognizing that in the whole history of mankind, few dates have had the importance of August 2, 1914. First Europe and soon after almost all humanity found themselves plunged into a dreadful event. Conventions, agreements, moral laws, all the foundations shook; from one day to the next, everything was called into question. The event was to exceed both instinctive forebodings and reasonable anticipations. Enormous, chaotic, monstrous, it still drags us in its wake.”—Maurice Genevoix, member of the Académie Française, quoted in the book Promise of Greatness (1968).

“The modern era . . . began in 1914, and no one knows when or how it will end. . . . It could end in mass annihilation.”—The Seattle Times, January 1, 1959.

“In its scope, its violence, and above all, in its totality, it established a precedent. World War I ushered in the century of Total War, of—in the first full sense of the term—global war. . . .Never before 1914-1918 had a war absorbed so much of the total resources of so many combatants and covered so large a part of the earth. Never had so many nations been involved. Never had the slaughter been so comprehensive and indiscriminate.”–World War I, by H.W. Baldwin, pages 1,2

The World Book Encyclopedia noted that the number of soldiers killed and wounded was over 37,000,000, and added:
“The number of civilian deaths in areas of actual war totaled about 5,000,000. Starvation, disease, and exposure accounted for about 80 of every 100 of these civilian deaths. Spanish influenza, which some persons blamed on the war, caused tens of millions of other deaths.”—1966 edition, Vol. 20, p. 377.

More than 50 years after 1914, German statesman Konrad Adenauer wrote: “Security and quiet have disappeared from the lives of men since 1914.”—The West Parker, Cleveland, Ohio, January 20, 1966.

“Some historians believe that the 20th century will be seen as a time of unparalleled savagery,” notes The New York Times.

An article in The Washington Post concurs: “Our 20th-century wars have been ‘total wars’ against combatants and civilians alike,” it says. “The casualties, including the genocide of the Jews, are measured in the tens of millions. The barbarian wars of centuries past were alley fights in comparison.” Civil insurrections have added to the carnage. How many have died? “The ‘megadeaths’ since 1914, by an estimate of Zbigniew Brzezinski, have totaled 197 million, ‘the equivalent of more than one in ten of the total world population in 1900,’” says the Post. It adds that it is an “indisputable fact that terrorism and wanton killing are embedded deeply in the culture of this century” and that “no political or economic system has so far in this century pacified or satisfied the restless millions.”

As regards economic consequences, Ashby Bladen, a senior vice president of The Guardian Life Insurance Company of America, writes: “Before 1914 the monetary and the financial systems were compatible. . . . If one takes August 1914 as marking the dividing line between them, the contrasts between the nineteenth and the twentieth centuries are striking. In many aspects of human affairs there has been a complete reversal of trend. . . . One major reason was the severance of the linkage between the financial system and money with intrinsic value that began in 1914. . . . The breaking of the linkage was a momentous event. . . . 1914 marked a radical, and in the end catastrophic, transformation of that system.”

“The 19th century—defined as a set of beliefs, assumptions, attitudes and morals—did not end on Jan. 1, 1901,” wrote columnist Charley Reese. “It ended in 1914. That’s also when the 20th century, defined the same way, began.”
Reese explained: “Virtually all of the conflicts that we have been concerned with all of our lives stemmed from that [first world] war. . . . It destroyed 19th century optimism and created the 20th century versions of hedonism, cynicism, anxiety, angst and nihilism.” “
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
what is it about today's world and events that so strongly convinces apocalyptic-minded Christians the end is upon us?
Objectively we can show how the deception has taken place in the texts, and how the whole world has been deceived by it...

With Judah being blinded to understanding what is going on (Zechariah 12:4), and about to cause WW3 (Zechariah 12:3).

Subjectively I'm the angel sent before the Tribulation, which i've known since before 3 years old, and spent my whole life with advanced knowledge of global eschatology.
Why do they think their understanding relating to the present time is correct, when others have been wrong?
The others were guessing; I know I'm back, and what God has told me, before looking at religious books to verify it.

In my opinion. :innocent:
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
if there is any apocalyptic event, man, or the god of this world, will cause it. Not the Father.

The rulership of this world was handed over to the one who claimed that listening to him and ignoring God would benefit mankind. In order to prove his claims God allowed this usurper to rule the world. Only then could the issue be settled once and for all time.

1 John 5:19..."We know that we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one"

In his temptation of Jesus, the devil offered him "all the kingdoms of the world" in exchange for one act of worship. If they were not his to give, how could he have offered them to God's own son, who was going to be the world's king and ruler at a future time?

The account says in Luke 4:5-8..."So he brought him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in an instant of time. 6 Then the Devil said to him: “I will give you all this authority and their glory, because it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. 7 If you, therefore, do an act of worship before me, it will all be yours.” 8 In reply Jesus said to him: “It is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”

The book of Daniel tells of the establishment of God's kingdom (the one Jesus taught us to pray for) and what it would do to the existing kingdoms at "the time of the end"....when the last of the foretold world powers had come to their finish.

When interpreting a dream for the King of Babylon, Daniel related a succession of world powers, beginning with Babylon itself, and on through Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome and finally Britain who allied herself with America in these "last day". These are the final rulers according to Daniel, who goes on to say...."In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever..." (Daniel 2:44)

We are living in the end times, when God's kingdom will "crush" all of the devil's appointed rulers out of existence.
All the corruption is being exposed as we speak.....people are slowly waking up to the fact that the people they put their trust in were puppets of the devil all along. How was that possible?

"Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. 15 It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works." (1 Corinthians 11:14-15)

The end of this world system is very much an act of the Father. The kingdom cannot "come" to rule the world until God has placed all enemies as a stool for the feet of his son...the incoming King. (Psalm 110:1-2)

Look at what is happening right now and since the year 1914 as Hockeycowboy has explained. The Bible not only foretold the events, but when the last days would begin......it doesn't tell us when they will end, but all indications are.....it will not be long.
 

Phantasman

Well-Known Member
The rulership of this world was handed over to the one who claimed that listening to him and ignoring God would benefit mankind. In order to prove his claims God allowed this usurper to rule the world. Only then could the issue be settled once and for all time.

1 John 5:19..."We know that we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one"

In his temptation of Jesus, the devil offered him "all the kingdoms of the world" in exchange for one act of worship. If they were not his to give, how could he have offered them to God's own son, who was going to be the world's king and ruler at a future time?

The account says in Luke 4:5-8..."So he brought him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in an instant of time. 6 Then the Devil said to him: “I will give you all this authority and their glory, because it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. 7 If you, therefore, do an act of worship before me, it will all be yours.” 8 In reply Jesus said to him: “It is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”

The book of Daniel tells of the establishment of God's kingdom (the one Jesus taught us to pray for) and what it would do to the existing kingdoms at "the time of the end"....when the last of the foretold world powers had come to their finish.

When interpreting a dream for the King of Babylon, Daniel related a succession of world powers, beginning with Babylon itself, and on through Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome and finally Britain who allied herself with America in these "last day". These are the final rulers according to Daniel, who goes on to say...."In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever..." (Daniel 2:44)

We are living in the end times, when God's kingdom will "crush" all of the devil's appointed rulers out of existence.
All the corruption is being exposed as we speak.....people are slowly waking up to the fact that the people they put their trust in were puppets of the devil all along. How was that possible?

"Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. 15 It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works." (1 Corinthians 11:14-15)

The end of this world system is very much an act of the Father. The kingdom cannot "come" to rule the world until God has placed all enemies as a stool for the feet of his son...the incoming King. (Psalm 110:1-2)

Look at what is happening right now and since the year 1914 as Hockeycowboy has explained. The Bible not only foretold the events, but when the last days would begin......it doesn't tell us when they will end, but all indications are.....it will not be long.

I agree with about 90%. The OT 10% misleads. Which is why I quit using the books of "darkness" before truth came (Jesus).

The kingdom is already here.

Luke:
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

A better description comes in Thomas, that wasn't open to be changed for the last 1400 years:

Thomas:
(3) Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

Jesus was correct when he said:
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

His kingdom came when the Holy Ghost was given to man (after he arose). She leads us to all truth.

John:
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

I always thought that the Russian dolls were the best description of the Aeons. God being the largest doll, with all others inside of it. This Aeon is the smallest doll. The next largest is the Aeon of the devil, Demiurge. Many Aeons exist above the devil, called "infinities". Pauls use of the words "third heaven" fits this image, as there are many Aeons. All within the Father. The "outer darkness" is any place outside where the Father is.

It's just an image (parable of thought) to give a better understanding of what is above our capability to understand. The "Fathers house of many mansions" Jesus spoke of are the many Aeons, that are infinities.

Just sound like a better image than the orthodox Bible teaches, IMO. And the canon gospel and Paul, unite with the non canon gospels with this image over the OT view, as well as Revelations.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I agree with about 90%. The OT 10% misleads. Which is why I quit using the books of "darkness" before truth came (Jesus).

Can I ask what makes you think that parts of the Hebrew Scriptures are misleading? Can you give examples?

The kingdom is already here.

The Kingdom rules in two phases according to the NT.
It first rules in the hearts of Jesus true disciples (by them actively and willingly doing the will of God in their lives, (beginning at Pentecost: Colossians 1:13) and after Jesus has cleansed the earth by removing the practicers of what is wicked, the Kingdom will "come" in a very real way as the only permanent ruling authority on earth. Only then can God's will be done "on earth as it is in heaven". (Daniel 2:44, Matthew 6:9-10)

Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you

This is a very misinterpreted scripture IMO. If you understand who Jesus was addressing when he said that, it reveals a different meaning. So who was he talking to?

"20 On being asked by the Pharisees when the Kingdom of God was coming, he answered them: “The Kingdom of God is not coming with striking observableness; 21 nor will people say, ‘See here!’ or, ‘There!’ For look! the Kingdom of God is in your midst.” (Luke 17:20-21)

See Strongs.... https://www.blueletterbible.org/nasb/luk/17/20/ss1/s_990020

Jesus said of the Pharisees..."You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: 8 ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me."

So there is no way to interpret Jesus' words as pertaining to those wicked hearts. What Jesus was saying is that the King of God's kingdom, it's chief representative, was right there "in the midst" of them, but they failed to acknowledge him. They were expecting their Messiah to "come" with great fanfare so that all would see him liberating their oppressed nation from the Roman yoke, but they missed the point of his teaching because their own expectations were wrong. Jesus came with instructions for a spiritual liberation....and only to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel", not its religious leaders whom he castigated at every opportunity.

A better description comes in Thomas, that wasn't open to be changed for the last 1400 years:

Do you believe that the Bible is the word of God?....or the words of men? If it is God's word, then he is its author, and he was the one who determined its contents. It can be trusted to contain all we need to serve God in truth.....but if it is the word of men and "they" determined its contents, then we cannot trust that its message has not been corrupted by them.

Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Again, I believe that the understanding is explained by the context.
What were the circumstances of this statement? It was just before the transfiguration. When Jesus appeared in his glorified state as God's appointed King, the apostles Peter, James and John did indeed have the privilege of seeing Jesus in his kingdom glory. They were among the ones standing there when Jesus said those words.

His kingdom came when the Holy Ghost was given to man (after he arose). She leads us to all truth.

She??? Where does that come from?

It is true that the kingdom was explained in more detail once the holy spirit anointed Jesus' disciples at Pentecost.

Jesus returned to his Father in heaven 40 days after his resurrection and told his apostles that everything would be revealed to them shortly by a "helper" that he would send. Grammatically, the word "paraklētos" (helper) is in the masculine gender.

Strongs.... https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G3875&t=NASB

As Jesus was leaving his apostles, they asked "Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” (Acts 1:6) The location of the Kingdom in which Jesus was going to rule was still understood by his closest companions to be earthly...so they imagined that he was going to establish it immediately.
Days later, the holy spirit gave them a full understanding that they were anointed for heavenly life.

But the ones with the "heavenly calling" (Hebrews 3:1) would rule over earthly subjects. (Revelation 21:1-4) So only one aspect of the Kingdom had to be clarified for them.
As kings, they would need subjects, and as priests, they would need sinners for whom to offer their services. (Revelation 20:6) Those who go to heaven have put away their sinful flesh and as a heavenly government they will rule earth's inhabitants and bring about reconciliation with their Creator, re-establishing God's first purpose.

This is how I understand those scriptures.
 

Phantasman

Well-Known Member
The Father never murdered any man. The Jews say he does/did.

The Holy Spirit is the mother of Christ. She says "this is my son, hear him" when he became Christ (full of the Holy Spirit". There are many scriptures showing her. The translations of Latin, took the Aramaic (Jesus spoken language) from spirit (feminine) to masculine by translation. During a time of extreme patriarchy, women were second rate.

The rest of your post didn't peak an answer, at this time.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
As opposed to all the times Christians thought in the past that the end was upon the world.

We even see from the New Testament seeming indication that the apostles thought the end was near coming. Perhaps even Jesus himself:

Matthew 10:23, Matthew 16:27-28, Luke 21:22
1 John 2:18, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

In addition, Christians have throughout history believed the end was near.

The present day idea that Jesus is coming soon seems to have been sparked by John Nelson Darby, the Millerites, and Ellen G. White: founder of Seventh Day Adventism.

White founded the SDA church on the coattails of the Great Disappointment: Great Disappointment - Wikipedia

John Miller had been wrong about the return of Christ, but White and her Adventist followers remained convinced the second coming was near.

After this 19th century wave of millenialism, Charles Taze Russel founded the Bible Students, which was reorganized into the Jehovah's Witnesses movement.

The Jehovah's Witnesses wrongly predicted the end of the world and events that were to herald the end a number of times before reworking their understanding into a gradual unfolding of Christ's coming.

In light of all this information- what is it about today's world and events that so strongly convinces apocalyptic-minded Christians the end is upon us?

Why do they think their understanding relating to the present time is correct, when others have been wrong?

Well the whole problem that most Christians have, That they have no understanding or knowledge of the book of Revelation, had they, they would see that in the book of Revelation, it's all laid out,

That there's one Prophecy in the book of Revelation that stands above all the other Prophecy's in the book of Revelation, until this Prophecy comes to be fulfilled, Christ Jesus will not return until this Prophecy comes to it's fulfillment.

According to some Christians, not all Christians believe in this so called Rapture Theory.
Some Christians are taught, that they will be Raptured out before the tribulation, But however, This is false teaching of man's.

How can Christ Jesus return to rapture people out before the tribulation, When according to the book of Revelation, Christ Jesus can not return, until the last Prophecy of the book of Revelation happens first.
That by the time this last Prophecy happens the tribulation is over. So what good is the Rapture going to do.that by the time Christ Jesus does return, the tribulation is over.

Therefore the teachings of their Pastor's, Preachers is a false teaching of man's.

They are being deceived and don't even know it.
All because they are listening to their Pastor's Preachers, more than they are listening to Christ Jesus in the book of Revelation.

As Christ Jesus said, "They be blind leaders of the blind"
"If the blind leads the blind, both shall fall into the ditch"
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
The Holy Spirit is the mother of Christ. She says "this is my son, hear him" when he became Christ (full of the Holy Spirit". There are many scriptures showing her. The translations of Latin, took the Aramaic (Jesus spoken language) from spirit (feminine) to masculine by translation. During a time of extreme patriarchy, women were second rate.

The holy spirit doesn't have a gender, so it is rather pointless to suggest that grammar can influence whether it is interpreted as masculine or feminine. Its the word not the spirit itself that is masculine or feminine. Only languages that carry gender in their vocabulary can be interpreted this way. In English the spirit would be an "it"...neuter.

As I understand it...."The Hebrew word ruʹach and the Greek word pneuʹma, often translated “spirit,” have a number of meanings. All of them refer to that which is invisible to human sight and gives evidence of force in motion.

The Hebrew and Greek words are used with reference to (1) wind, (2) the active life-force in earthly creatures, (3) the impelling force that issues from a person’s figurative heart and causes him to say and do things in a certain way, (4) inspired expressions originating from an invisible source, (5) spirit persons, and (6) God’s active force, or holy spirit.(Exodus 35:21; Psalm 104:29; Matthew 12:43; Luke 11:13)"
(WT library)

The rest of your post didn't peak an answer, at this time.

What does that mean exactly?
297.gif
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
As opposed to all the times Christians thought in the past that the end was upon the world.

We even see from the New Testament seeming indication that the apostles thought the end was near coming. Perhaps even Jesus himself:

Matthew 10:23, Matthew 16:27-28, Luke 21:22
1 John 2:18, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

In addition, Christians have throughout history believed the end was near.

The present day idea that Jesus is coming soon seems to have been sparked by John Nelson Darby, the Millerites, and Ellen G. White: founder of Seventh Day Adventism.

White founded the SDA church on the coattails of the Great Disappointment: Great Disappointment - Wikipedia

John Miller had been wrong about the return of Christ, but White and her Adventist followers remained convinced the second coming was near.

After this 19th century wave of millenialism, Charles Taze Russel founded the Bible Students, which was reorganized into the Jehovah's Witnesses movement.

The Jehovah's Witnesses wrongly predicted the end of the world and events that were to herald the end a number of times before reworking their understanding into a gradual unfolding of Christ's coming.

In light of all this information- what is it about today's world and events that so strongly convinces apocalyptic-minded Christians the end is upon us?

Why do they think their understanding relating to the present time is correct, when others have been wrong?
People have been predicting the Apocalypse as imminent, and getting it wrong, from the dawn of recorded history, and I believe significantly before that, as well. There's several interesting theoriies about why people so often think this, but they're not really relevent here.

All previous predictions have been wrong, but I'm sure THIS time the doom sayers have got it... *brief interuption* sorry, I was just distracted by yet another predicted apocalypse that failed to appear when predicted... as I was saying... All previous predictions have been wrong, but I'm sure THIS time the doom sayers have got it right!


A Brief History of the Apocalypse
 

Phantasman

Well-Known Member
The holy spirit doesn't have a gender, so it is rather pointless to suggest that grammar can influence whether it is interpreted as masculine or feminine. Its the word not the spirit itself that is masculine or feminine. Only languages that carry gender in their vocabulary can be interpreted this way. In English the spirit would be an "it"...neuter.

As I understand it...."The Hebrew word ruʹach and the Greek word pneuʹma, often translated “spirit,” have a number of meanings. All of them refer to that which is invisible to human sight and gives evidence of forces nein motion.

The Hebrew and Greek words are used with reference to (1) wind, (2) the active life-force in earthly creatures, (3) the impelling force that issues from a person’s figurative heart and causes him to say and do things in a certain way, (4) inspired expressions originating from an invisible source, (5) spirit persons, and (6) God’s active force, or holy spirit.(Exodus 35:21; Psalm 104:29; Matthew 12:43; Luke 11:13)"
(WT library)



What does that mean exactly?
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The Exodus defines "spirit". Christ defined "Spirit". One is the existence within man. The other the "comforter" that reveals truth from the Father. The Spirit of God is different from the spirit from God.

Jesus merely told us the position of spiritual things. How it relates to what we know from our physical, fleshly viewpoint. Gender means nothing in spirituality. It's not about male or female organs, which is of the flesh. The spirit of an Earthly man is no different than a womans.

The Holy Spirit takes on the role of nurturer, as a mother nurtures her children. It is not a Trinity, but more a family (of perfection). The Holy Spirit is role of mother, in Father, Holy Spirit, Son. Not hard to see, unless you argue for the orthodox church fathers. A partial gospel instead of a full gospel.
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
As opposed to all the times Christians thought in the past that the end was upon the world.

We even see from the New Testament seeming indication that the apostles thought the end was near coming. Perhaps even Jesus himself:

Matthew 10:23, Matthew 16:27-28, Luke 21:22
1 John 2:18, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

In addition, Christians have throughout history believed the end was near.

The present day idea that Jesus is coming soon seems to have been sparked by John Nelson Darby, the Millerites, and Ellen G. White: founder of Seventh Day Adventism.

White founded the SDA church on the coattails of the Great Disappointment: Great Disappointment - Wikipedia

John Miller had been wrong about the return of Christ, but White and her Adventist followers remained convinced the second coming was near.

After this 19th century wave of millenialism, Charles Taze Russel founded the Bible Students, which was reorganized into the Jehovah's Witnesses movement.

The Jehovah's Witnesses wrongly predicted the end of the world and events that were to herald the end a number of times before reworking their understanding into a gradual unfolding of Christ's coming.

In light of all this information- what is it about today's world and events that so strongly convinces apocalyptic-minded Christians the end is upon us?

Why do they think their understanding relating to the present time is correct, when others have been wrong?
Not a thing.
 

Buddha Dharma

Dharma Practitioner
All previous predictions have been wrong, but I'm sure THIS time the doom sayers have got it... *brief interuption* sorry, I was just distracted by yet another predicted apocalypse that failed to appear when predicted... as I was saying... All previous predictions have been wrong, but I'm sure THIS time the doom sayers have got it right!

Joking aside, this does raise the interesting question of when the apocalypse will happen- or if it will at all?

Doesn't it kind of force Christians to rethink what the point of their religion is, if one actually concludes no apocalypse is coming? The first Christians seemed to take it as a fundamental point of the religion, that Jesus being messiah meant he was coming back to make everything right.
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
Joking aside, this does raise the interesting question of when the apocalypse will happen- or if it will at all?

Doesn't it kind of force Christians to rethink what the point of their religion is, if one actually concludes no apocalypse is coming? The first Christians seemed to take it as a fundamental point of the religion, that Jesus being messiah meant he was coming back to make everything right.
I'm sure the Apocalypse will occur at some point. I'm just very skeptical of people who claim it's imminent because they say so.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
People have been predicting the Apocalypse as imminent, and getting it wrong, from the dawn of recorded history, and I believe significantly before that, as well. There's several interesting theoriies about why people so often think this, but they're not really relevent here.

All previous predictions have been wrong, but I'm sure THIS time the doom sayers have got it... *brief interuption* sorry, I was just distracted by yet another predicted apocalypse that failed to appear when predicted... as I was saying... All previous predictions have been wrong, but I'm sure THIS time the doom sayers have got it right!


A Brief History of the Apocalypse


Nope, actually they still don't have it right. But they keep trying to get it right, but each time it's just another failure, one after another.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
As opposed to all the times Christians thought in the past that the end was upon the world.

We even see from the New Testament seeming indication that the apostles thought the end was near coming. Perhaps even Jesus himself:

Matthew 10:23, Matthew 16:27-28, Luke 21:22
1 John 2:18, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

In addition, Christians have throughout history believed the end was near.

The present day idea that Jesus is coming soon seems to have been sparked by John Nelson Darby, the Millerites, and Ellen G. White: founder of Seventh Day Adventism.

White founded the SDA church on the coattails of the Great Disappointment: Great Disappointment - Wikipedia

John Miller had been wrong about the return of Christ, but White and her Adventist followers remained convinced the second coming was near.

After this 19th century wave of millenialism, Charles Taze Russel founded the Bible Students, which was reorganized into the Jehovah's Witnesses movement.

The Jehovah's Witnesses wrongly predicted the end of the world and events that were to herald the end a number of times before reworking their understanding into a gradual unfolding of Christ's coming.

In light of all this information- what is it about today's world and events that so strongly convinces apocalyptic-minded Christians the end is upon us?

Why do they think their understanding relating to the present time is correct, when others have been wrong?


First you would have to understand, what Jesus and the Apostles ment by, The end is near ?

If you had notice, Jesus and the apostles said the end is near, but didn't say when it was near.
Near could be Near yesterday, Near to day, Near tommorow, Near future,

But the one thing that Jesus did do, is give the signs when the end is Near ?

What are those signs, that will show when the end is Near ?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Joking aside, this does raise the interesting question of when the apocalypse will happen- or if it will at all?

As I understand the Bible, one of man's greatest enemies is time. Our lives are limited and before we know it, our youth is gone and we face aging and a slow decline into inevitable death. It is not something we look forward to....but something we dread. No one with a measure of health wants to get old and die....but no one can stop it.....yet.

In God's realm, (the place where he resides, called heaven) time doesn't really exist, so forever is not even a concept there like it became on earth. We are subject to the earth's rotation to count our days into months and our months into years....but originally, life here in the material realm was meant to go on forever too. Can we imagine living forever without growing old or succumbing to aging, sickness and death? That life is actually programmed into all of us because it was the life we were meant to live in the beginning.

We have been in the process of God implementing a plan of reconciliation with humans who unfortunately inherited sin from their original parents (like some kind of genetic disorder) when they chose a course of independence from their creator.

According to the Bible "a day" to God is "like a thousand years and a thousand years as one day". (2 Peter 3:8)

So counting a thousand years as a day, from God's perspective, things are progressing quite quickly. The first rebel was not human so things are sorted out in universal time rather than in earth time.

From the time of the rebellion in Eden to the coming of the Messiah, it took around 4,000 earth years. This should offer some insight on how time is measured in the spiritual realm with 2 Peter 3:8 in mind. (Just four days)

The very first prophesy mentioned in the Bible (Genesis 3:15) had to do with players in a drama, the identities of these players remained a mystery until Jesus made his first appearance....then things became clearer. The prophesy had to do with God and the devil locked in opposition, vying for the hearts and minds of men.

The "woman" is God's heavenly family of spirit beings from which came the Messiah. The devil as God's adversary also had offspring (John 8:44) who would be at enmity with the seed of the woman, (Jesus Christ) delivering a "heel" would from which Jesus recovered. But the prophesy also spoke about a blow to the head of the serpent, a fatal wound from which the devil would not recover. This has not happened yet.

After beginning his ministry of reconciliation, Jesus left the work he had started in the hands of his apostles to carry on. But in universal time, it was going to take more thousands of earth years to come to its foretold conclusion. And here we are I believe staring down the barrel of the end of this world system of things as things continue to spiral out of control. I believe we are nearing the final act that will bring this devil controlled system to its end.

Doesn't it kind of force Christians to rethink what the point of their religion is, if one actually concludes no apocalypse is coming? The first Christians seemed to take it as a fundamental point of the religion, that Jesus being messiah meant he was coming back to make everything right.

God has kept "the end" as an imminent event in the minds of his worshippers since the beginning of the Christian era. This is because no one has to wait for the completion of God's purpose, for longer than their own lifetime.

The Bible teaches that death results in time ceasing for every person. (Ecclesiastes 9:5; 10) All sleep peacefully in their graves, unaware of how long they will sleep, awaiting the time when the earth is cleansed and they are called out out of their rest to resume life on earth with all their family. (John 5:28-29) The devil will be gone and so will all those who have treated God and their fellow man with contempt.

The apocalypse is a time of accounting. All will answer to God for the life they have led. But it will come in God's time, not ours. The Messiah will yet come and show the world that his rulership will be established...it will crush all human rulership out of existence and stand forever as man's only government. (Daniel 2:44)

I believe it isn't a case of "if"...but "when". (Matthew 24:44)
 

qaz

Member
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled."

2018 and still nothing.
 
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