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Featured What a bad translation

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Scrooge, Oct 24, 2017.

  1. Scrooge

    Scrooge certainty seeking

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    And the justice of God by faith of Jesus Christ to all and upon all believing: for there is no distinction:
    (Rom 3:22)
    With Romans 10:6-8 in mind how should verse 3:22 be translated and understood?

    Jeremiah, Moses and Paul prophesied on just this to which is found in Romans 3:22.


    Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ, the Word, all that GOD would have us be. HIS Commandments down from above: ) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ, the Word, all that GOD would have us be. HIS Commandments again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word (Christ; the Word, the commandments manifested in the flesh, Our flesh) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, in thy heart, and in thy hand: that we may do it; this is, THE WORD OF FAITH IN WHICH WE PREACH.

    And that is the Gospel, the Kingdom of GOD within you. For GOD hath said, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them." And HE shall be our GOD and we shall be HIS people, for it is GOD that works in us both to will and do HIS good pleasure. Christ (the Word, His Commandments, GOD's will ) in you the hope of Glory


    Romans 10:6-8 and Deut. 30:11-14 are speaking the same premise as of that which is found in Hebrews 8:10,11 and Jeremiah 31:33. It is just worded different. The Gospel, the New Covenant theme is interwoven throughout the Holy Writ; written various ways, believe.
     
  2. Nakosis

    Nakosis Time Efficient Lollygagger
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    IMO it says the Christian by their faith in Jesus are equal to the Jews who follow the laws of the OT.

    It removed any requirements for Christians to following any of the Jewish laws.
     
  3. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
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    Romans 3:22 is speaking about abiding in Christ Jesus, and so it is unhealthy to read it as 'Faith'. This translation problem is partially caused by the shift of the word in meaning since the time the KJV was published, and that is down to Martin Luther's influence and is part of his bloodthirsty regime's gift to the world. He was the one who started the whole 'salvation by Faith alone' thing and twisted things pretty badly. Romans 10:6-8 is quoting from Habakkuk which is about Faithfulness, not faith though the underlying Greek word in Romans can be translated as either one.
    edit: Habakkuk 2:4 is the quote
    Hebrews 8:10 quotes the book of Jeremiah, chapter 31:33, which is written specifically about the time the Jews are brought back into their land from Babylon. It is quoted in Hebrews not to indicate that it is predicting Jesus but to indicate that since the covenant can be upgraded once, it can be upgraded also to include more people (gentiles). That is the basis of Christianity. That being said a person must abide in that covenant. If they leave then they break it. It seems they can be restored, and I am not saying that they cannot be restored. Of course they can.
     
  4. Scrooge

    Scrooge certainty seeking

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    Not so. The Word says,
    Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
    (Rom 3:31 KJV)
    Through Faith; GOD's Commandments, the Word, Christ in our hearts and minds we establish the Law. This is the Faith to which we speak. And this is the Faith to which is spoken of in Romans.
     
  5. Nakosis

    Nakosis Time Efficient Lollygagger
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    And yet Christians don't follow Jewish law.
     
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  6. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe this is better and it is only ASV:
    Rom 3: 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction;
     
  7. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe that makes us very unequal because Jews were never able to keep the law (and still can't) but Christians can.
     
  8. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe that is true. We keep the law that God requires of us.
     
  9. Nakosis

    Nakosis Time Efficient Lollygagger
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    That's what I think the intent of the passage was to explain pretty much what you are saying.
     
  10. Akivah

    Akivah Well-Known Member

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    D e u t 30:11-14 is a direct refutation of Christian assertions that 1) we need an intermediary and 2) G-d's Law is too difficult to be followed.

    For this commandment which I command you this day, is not concealed from you, nor is it far away. It is not in heaven, that you should say, "Who will go up to heaven for us and fetch it for us, to tell [it] to us, so that we can fulfill it?" Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, "Who will cross to the other side of the sea for us and fetch it for us, to tell [it] to us, so that we can fulfill it?" Rather,[this] thing is very close to you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can fulfill it.

    G-d through Moses tells the Hebrews that they can follow His Law on their own.
     
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  11. Scrooge

    Scrooge certainty seeking

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    Jewish law? No such thing. GOD's laws; the Decalogue and any law pertaining to morality needs to be fulfilled in a Christian or they are not a Christian.
     
  12. Nakosis

    Nakosis Time Efficient Lollygagger
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    Filed under Christian opinion number 532.
     
  13. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.

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    And yet they use Jewish text. I could never figure that one out.

    It's like they stole it laughing bwahahaha!!!

    I can finally make a religion!!!
     
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  14. Scrooge

    Scrooge certainty seeking

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    Why? Here is a interlinear translation. Compare it to the ASV Muffled. ASV translation is not even close. It is a paraphrase and not a good one at that.


    Rom 3:22
    δικαιοσυνη G1343 RIGHTEOUSNESS
    δε G1161 EVEN OF
    θεου G2316 GOD
    δια G1223 THROUGH
    πιστεως G4102 FAITH OF
    ιησου G2424 JESUS
    χριστου G5547 CHRIST,
    εις G1519 INTO
    παντας G3956 ALL
    και G2532 AND
    επι G1909 UPON
    παντας G3956 ALL
    τους G3588 THOSE THAT
    πιστευοντας G4100 BELIEVE :
    ου G3756 NO
    γαρ G1063 FOR
    εστιν G2076 THERE
    διαστολη G1293 DIFFERENCE :
     
  15. Scrooge

    Scrooge certainty seeking

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    So this is what you post when you can't prove a post wrong?
    Noted.
     
  16. Nakosis

    Nakosis Time Efficient Lollygagger
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    This is what I post when every Christian I talk to provides a different answer.

    I mean, even if I were to agree with you, I'd run into another Christian telling me I was wrong.
     
  17. Scrooge

    Scrooge certainty seeking

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    Actually there is no mention of any abiding in Christ Jesus in that verse.
    Romans 3:22 should be translated something like this, Yet the righteousness of GOD through Faith of Jesus Christ into all and upon all that believe.... The post to Muffled above shows why it should be. The Strong's concordance reference numbers are provided so that any that wish can see for themselves.

    Faith is define in the BDAG lexicon as a "...state of believing on the basis of the reliability of the one trusted, trust, confidence, faith in the active sense=‘believing’..."

    It is salvation by Faith. However not our faith; Jesus Christ's faith. Christ in in us the expectation of glory. For we are dead nevertheless we live, yet not us but Christ liveth and the life we now live in the flesh we now live by the faith of the Son of GOD.
    But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ (the word,commandments ) down from above: ) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ (the word,commandments ) again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word (Christ, commandments) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: (that thou mayest do it) that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
    (Rom 10:6-8 KJV)

    I don't know why you think Romans 10 is quoting Habakkuk 2:4. It is quoting Deut. 30:11-14. That is why there should be no qualms with the inserting of commandments in the above quotation of Romans 10:6-8. Christ, the word, and the Commandments are synonymous in this instance. The verses in Romans 10 are defining what faith is. It is having Christ, the word, the commandments in our hearts and mouths that we do it, that is the word of faith in which we are to preach.

    For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
    (Deu 30:11-14 KJV)
     
  18. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
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    Romans 10:6-8 is copying out of Habakkuk 2:4.
    They do not match. I think that you are really making a good effort and am not trying to discourage you. Please check this reference however.
     
  19. Scrooge

    Scrooge certainty seeking

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    It is not subjective.
     
  20. Scrooge

    Scrooge certainty seeking

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    There is no such thing as Jewish Law; it is GOD'S Law. And Yes Christians do follow GOD'S LAW. They are Christ like. They can't help it.
     
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