What’s with the Ayn Rand hate?

[Shadow Wolf]

For one, she wasn't a philosopher. She was a fiction author (much like Chuck Palahniuk, who isn't a philosopher himself). And, for two, for all the government hate, for all the bashing on those who get government help, for all her "responsibility for personal choices," she chose to ignore the warnings about cigarette smoking, her lungs became diseased, and she had her grubby hands held out for money.

 

[Sunstone]

@SomeRandom ,

I read Atlas Shrugged when I was 15 and I thought it was spot on. I had neither the knowledge nor the life experience to appreciate how unrealistic Rand is. I think John Rogers perhaps made the point best:

“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."​

The only thing I would add to Rogers is, Rand's views were largely uninformed by empirical facts. Her understanding of both science and history seems to have been minimal even by the standards of her day. You can see how she could cook up such an unrealistic view of people, economics, and the world. She had so little to go on.

 

[Sunstone]

Do people have specific objections to statements made by Ayn Rand?

Sure. Too many objections to list them all. But for starters, how about her notion that having a sense of humor about yourself is not only immoral but marks you as among the greatest fools on earth? Rand didn't have much of a sense of humor about herself, and she didn't like it much when others did either. I never did understand how she could possibly take herself so seriously.

Or just blanket dislike for her as a person?

Personal dislike? She was more boring than unlikable -- except for her personal hygiene. Her refusal to clean herself was so pronounced her boyfriend eventually ended up incapable of getting an erection. I think I would have personally disliked her personal hygiene if I had known her, but for the most part, I think I would have just found her boring.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

She had some good ideas that are helpful in how to personally conduct yourself but her philosophy would be very cruel and a disaster if applied on the level of social policy. She was also a bit of a hypocrite as she was on welfare or somesuch when she was older.

 

[Sunstone]

Do people have specific objections to statements made by Ayn Rand?

Her notion that we should always act in our rational self-interest was not quite as well thought out as she imagined. For instance, "the Tragedy of the Commons" pretty clearly demonstrates how acting in our rational self-interest as pretty much our only guiding principle can lead to self-harm and the harm of others. Also it is irrational not to take into account the needs and/or interests of the community on which your life and well-being depend when making decisions that impact that community. In fact, it can be suicidal not to take into account the community's interests. And so and so on and so on. She really didn't think things through all that much. She was mostly just about getting back at the commies who stole her family's property in Russia.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

She had some good ideas that are helpful in how to personally conduct yourself but her philosophy would be very cruel and a disaster if applied on the level of social policy. She was also a bit of a hypocrite as she was on welfare or somesuch when she was older.

I kind of view her like the Bible. True, there are some good ideas there. But even Hitler trying to make cars more widely available to Germans was a good idea. That doesn't excuse all the bad, and indeed we can find the same good, "better good," even, from other sources.

 

[Revoltingest]

And you're still trying to muddy up the discussion with semantic side-bars.

That can happen when we try to standardize definitions.
The need to be 'correct' even if it means being misunderstood
by the rest of humanity is problematic.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Her notion that we should always act in our rational self-interest was not quite as well thought out as she imagined. For instance, "the Tragedy of the Commons" pretty clearly demonstrates how acting in our rational self-interest as pretty much our only guiding principle can lead to self-harm and the harm of others. Also it is irrational not to take into account the needs and/or interests of the community on which your life and well-being depend when making decisions that impact that community. In fact, it can be suicidal not to take into account the community's interests. And so and so on and so on. She really didn't think things through all that much. She was mostly just about getting back at the commies who stole her family's property in Russia.

She never did realize her notion of "rational self-interests" often would and do being a collective member of society and forgoing your own personal wants at times as it tends to help us and make things easier as we form social bonds. And those aren't easily formed if you're fueled by greed and selfishness. Even Machiavelli acknowledged it can't be all about me but that it must be a game of give-and-take for those who play that game well. IMO, Rand is the Mother of Libertarian Naivety.

 

[Revoltingest]

I’ve said it before and I’ll keep saying it until there is no objection - all fanatics should be put to the sword.

If the fanatics are only offering their views, then I'd let'm speak.

Unless of course they disagree with me, eh?

 

[Revoltingest]

For one, she wasn't a philosopher..

While not a member of the Philosopher's Union (The PU),
I'd say holding forth on matters philosophical, & getting
it published is qualifying. Btw, she wrote more than fiction.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'd say holding forth on matters philosophical, & getting
it published is qualifying

If she is a philosopher, than so is Chuck Palahniuk. But he's not considered a philosopher, although much like Rand he writes fiction that is heavily steeped in and driven by philosophy.

 

[Duke_Leto]

I use the standard dictionary definition.
Under it, Denmark is capitalist, & USSR is socialist.
I know it hurts, but admit it you must.

Could you give that dictionary definition, please?

 

[Revoltingest]

If she is a philosopher, than so is Chuck Palahniuk. But he's not considered a philosopher, although much like Rand he writes fiction that is heavily steeped in and driven by philosophy.

I don't know who he is.
But Rand has written non-fiction.
It sure seems important to her critics to claim she isn't a philosopher.
Reminds me of the brand of feminism which denies that trans women
are just men with imitation lady parts.

 

[Revoltingest]

Could you give that dictionary definition, please?

Definition of socialism | Dictionary.com
noun
a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I kind of view her like the Bible. True, there are some good ideas there. But even Hitler trying to make cars more widely available to Germans was a good idea. That doesn't excuse all the bad, and indeed we can find the same good, "better good," even, from other sources.

I'm just going by what I know about her overall viewpoint. I've never read her books. I think I have a couple of her novels on my Kindle but they're not high up on my reading list. I have a similar opinion of her as I do Anton LaVey - rather pathetic people who espoused elitist and rather cruel doctrines (while having some useful opinions, perhaps incidentally) towards others but were weaklings, charlatans and hypocrites in reality.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't know who he is.
But Rand has written non-fiction.
It sure seems important to her critics to claim she isn't a philosopher.
Reminds me of the brand of feminism which denies that trans women
are just men with imitation lady parts.

It's not just her critics. But, generally, her lack of engagement with the field is a big reason she's not considered a philosopher. Bill Nye The Science guy can do this and that, but he's really not a scientist.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's not just her critics. But, generally, her lack of engagement with the field is a big reason she's not considered a philosopher. Bill Nye The Science guy can do this and that, but he's really not a scientist.

The field....the only philosophers of any worth to arrive in the last century
are Vroomfondel & Majikthise. Btw, one should know one's argument is
weak when one needs passive voice, ie, "she's not considered a philosopher".
People without science degrees can do science, btw.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm just going by what I know about her overall viewpoint. I've never read her books. I think I have a couple of her novels on my Kindle but they're not high up on my reading list. I have a similar opinion of her as I do Anton LaVey - rather pathetic people who espoused elitist and rather cruel doctrines (while having some useful opinions, perhaps incidentally) towards others but were weaklings, charlatans and hypocrites in reality.

So having never read any of her books, you've
nonetheless formed strong opinions about her
cruelty, weakness & hypocrisy, eh. Oh, dear.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

People without science degrees can do science, btw.

But it doesn't make them a scientist.

 

[Howard Is]

But it doesn't make them a scientist.

To be fair, in that case Jeff Beck and I aren’t musicians.

He can’t even read music.