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Featured Western taboo, skepticism and religion.

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by mikkel_the_dane, Mar 8, 2021.

  1. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    First off, I use some different understandings of some words and thus I break the taboo of that all words must be the common usage, because of reasons... :D
    Secondly ,I don't claim, that I am authoritative for, how you should understand words, but that won't stop me from using a different understanding of words.

    So what is the most common Western taboo, that I should not break? Well, that there are really life everyday limitations to reason, logic and evidence for all cases of humans and their interaction among themselves and the rest of the world.
    Secondly, that religion has only one true, proper and correct definition.

    So with another way of doing that I am a skeptic than common Western skepticism and thus by doubting my Western culture, I am as an atheist, still religious and know that I can't do all of my life with only reason, logic and evidence.

    That is it. I am a friendly atheist, in that I accept that my religion is not the only way to do it. But if you go responsible and claim you can do it with reason, logic and evidence for all of the everyday life, I am not nice.
    I am still working on how to do not nice without being mean and I admit that.

    Peace my fellow human. And if we have to fight, I can do that. Not that I want to, but I am a former professional soldier and it is hard to learn old dogs new tricks. :)

    Regards
    Mikkel
     
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  2. joe1776

    joe1776 Well-Known Member

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    The purpose of words is to communicate thoughts. If you use words as defined in common usage, other people will understand you. Why do you use your own definitions? Perhaps an example would help explain the advantage.
     
  3. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Silent Generation - so don't expect much
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    “When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’ ’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’ ’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.” :oops:
     
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  4. Secret Chief

    Secret Chief Meghalayan Ape

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    Which are?
    You realise your apparent general approach to the meanings of words is a certain way to create misunderstandings?

    You say you are friendly, you say you accept that your way is not the only way. But then you say that a possible alternative way leads to you not being nice. This suggests you are putting others between a rock and a hard place. :shrug:
     
  5. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    I don't use my own definitions as such. That was not correctly phrased. I admit that. I use non common ones.

    For an example of advantage. If you compare and use different versions of religion, you get different insights to how culture works and if you compare the different insights, you can get a further insight. If you think that is an advantage.
     
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  6. Kooky

    Kooky Freedom from Sanity

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    Ah, but words can do so much more when properly applied!
    They can inspire, shock, disgust, anger, confuse; they can create images and sounds in our mind, related to or independently of their meaning. They can connect or divide people, communities, and entire cultures. Sometimes, we might want to miscommunicate on purpose, to set people off and create a productive state of confusion.

    All of those, I would argue, are valid use cases for specific situations. Let us not marry our dictionaries!

    It is, of course, the writer's duty to apply each in the proper fashion.
     
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  7. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    Those reasons as far as I can tell are always limited to a certain (inter-)subjective understanding. Not that I can avoid that myself, so I try to catch when I am subjective.

    Yeah, but there are different kinds of misunderstandings and the fun is right here for that word: a failure to understand something correctly. Because then we play the correct and proper definition for correct or if you like definition. There is only always one correct definition of a word.

    Well, yes. If you want to do - everything/the world/the universe/reality/humanity/the truth/God and all other words that end there; with only reason, logic and evidence, you are between a rock and a hard place, because you claim something no other human has been able to do in recorded history. That is off course not the truth, but a provisional/conditional truth so far for all of the record history. :)
     
  8. Secret Chief

    Secret Chief Meghalayan Ape

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    Actually (sorry for the misunderstanding!) I meant you are putting some people in an "impossible" position. If my approach to religion was based on only reason, logic and evidence why would I want to instigate an exchange in which you will be mean, not nice and fight?
     
  9. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    I won't be mean, but I won't be nice and fight you with cognitive dissonance, absurdity, the unreasonable, the irrational, the insane and what not as something all other humans are other than you. But that is the mark of what if everybody else than you are not really reasonable, rational, sane and what not? Yeah, I am not nice, but then a part of my brain is in a limited sense insane. Yet I am still a human and so are you.

    Why? Well, if you claim something no other human has ever done, then in all likelihood I can't be nice and avoid causing cognitive dissonance and other unpleasant feelings in you, because that is as far as I can tell the psychology involved.
    Falsification can involve unpleasant feelings.
     
  10. Secret Chief

    Secret Chief Meghalayan Ape

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    Absurdity, the unreasonable, the irrational and the insane... that's certainly a different approach than drowning in a fallacy fest.
     
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  11. joe1776

    joe1776 Well-Known Member

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    How can they be "properly applied" when they don't communicate a meaning that's commonly used?

    A productive state of confusion? I've never experienced such a thing. I avoid confusion.

    I'd argue for more use of the dictionary not less. For example, before college students can learn critical thinking, they have to learn the highfalutin language of Academia that's used in their texts and in their classrooms. Since we think mostly in words, clarity should be the top priority.
     
    #11 joe1776, Mar 8, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2021
  12. Orbit

    Orbit I'm a planet

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    Just an aside, but I'm an academic who is writing a textbook. The reviewers want me to "raise the reading level". I'm refusing to use "academese" in favor of clear, plain language. Why? Because communicating is more important than sounding smart.
     
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  13. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    Here is 3 versions of religion:
    Google: the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
    religion | Definition, Types, List of Religions, Symbols, Examples, & Facts
    What is Religion?

    Now what?
     
  14. joe1776

    joe1776 Well-Known Member

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    Words often have two or three commonly used definitions. We understand which common usage the author means via the context of the sentence.

    The word "set" I think has 17 meanings but we have no trouble with it when used in context.
     
  15. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    So you understand that I am an atheist, naturalist and religious? And can use God in a non-common way? Some people don't.
     
  16. Kooky

    Kooky Freedom from Sanity

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    I have tried to explain just that with the post you are responding to, apparently without much success.
    Words are tools, and like any tool, they can be used to produce an intended effect, or misapplied to create unintended consequences.

    (This was, for example, an analogy - a rhetorical figure employed to ease understanding of a specific context by drawing on more common, shared knowledge between speaker and audience.)

    Have you never experienced a situation where elements and fragments of ideas of a thing felt as if suspended in your mind, not quite fitting together, but you could feel there was something about it that you couldn't quite grasp yet? And then, eventually, everything falls into place and you start understanding what used to be a confusing mess days, weeks, months or years ago?

    I've had that experience when reading some books.


    I personally found the utility of standard dictionaries as a tool for grasping the highfalutin' language of academia to be fairly limited, to be honest. If you actually want to grasp a given field's terminology, I would recommend more specialized literature anyway.
     
  17. joe1776

    joe1776 Well-Known Member

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    No, I can't understand what you believe just from what you've written. You would need to add an explanation and if your explanation is concise, you might be able to avoid having to explain those labels you've used.

    For example, I avoid having the problem of explaining the labels atheist, agnostic, and so on, this way:

    I believe that if a Creator exists, and I do allow the possibility, the founders of the world's most popular Western religions knew no more about it than I do.

    Is this any help?
     
  18. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    I don't care as long as you define your terms so we both understand.
     
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  19. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    Okay, if everything is logically coherent, then how can some humans be incoherent?
    That is one version.

    So now you will get the long answer, but it will also be for someone else: Hi @firedragon

    So here is the ground challenge for any for all humans and all of the word with only reason, logic and evidence:
    So here is the first absurdly simple test in a semi-formal way:
    Someone: Everything is X.
    Me: Non-X.

    Now the deep dive.
    Everything is with words to explain everything also the explanation of everything, unless you with your explanation are not a part of everything.
    So here is the effect. You and I don't share everything. We are different parts of everything and thus everything is in effect our same, similar and/or different experiences of everything. I have tried reading a lot of different attempts of doing it universally for all experiences as same, orderly, logic, objective and I also fall short when looking closer in trying to do it.

    How? Well, it is simple. Everything is not just objective, because if that was the case, we couldn't be different in some, but not all cases. On the other hand everything is not just subjective, because there is you and the rest, even if you name that your subconscious mind as an ontological solipsist.
    Further for logic it is this: The law of non-contraction is about a single thing in a single given sense for a limited given time and space. That allows for difference for a different thing in another sense for another limited given time and space.
    So the idea of reductionism of in effect an orderly, coherent explanation where everything add up and makes positive sense, is easy for a skeptic like me.
    Someone: I can do everything in an orderly, coherent explanation where everything add up and makes positive sense.
    Me: I can't.

    Now if you do that on the Internet or even otherwise in real life, you can get words like unreasonable, irrational, insane, absurd, meaningless and so on back as an response.
    Well, if everything is in part the positive versions of these negative, then how can parts of everything be these negative, if everything is with reason, logic and evidence.

    I haven't solved that so I don't believe in with only reason, logic and evidence.

    Regards
    Mikkel
     
  20. Secret Chief

    Secret Chief Meghalayan Ape

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    Hold on there, I didn't say that I believed that. I certainly don't. :)
     
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