'western' and 'eastern' LHP

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

Then let me ask you . . . if everyone simply uses the term LHP, how do we know which LHP they are referring to?

Well, there really isn't a problem here, I guess you could call this a 'false dichotomy '. On the one hand, we have people practising the left hand path' across various cultures and time periods, and on the other, you and a few others here at RF that keep trying to draw arbitrary lines based on what seems to be an utter lack of comprehension of the former.

You say this 'wlhp' was born with LaVey , yet every single thing I see represented here as 'wlhp' could be described as wishful thinking, spiritual pipe dreams, and mystical gobbledygook, all of which he made a point of mocking.

 

[EtuMalku]

Well, there really isn't a problem here, I guess you could call this a 'false dichotomy '. On the one hand, we have people practising the left hand path' across various cultures and time periods, and on the other, you and a few others here at RF that keep trying to draw arbitrary lines based on what seems to be an utter lack of comprehension of the former.

You say this 'wlhp' was born with LaVey , yet every single thing I see represented here as 'wlhp' could be described as wishful thinking, spiritual pipe dreams, and mystical gobbledygook, all of which he made a point of mocking.

If you cannot comprehend what I post I see no further reason to converse with you . . .

 

[Kapalika]

Then let me ask you . . . if everyone simply uses the term LHP, how do we know which LHP they are referring to?

I think the differences alleged between so called eastern and western LHP's are little if any larger of diviation between the various so called western LHP traditions. So really the variation is little different than the variation in either the so called eastern or western left hand path.

Your argument could be expanded to ask what tradition within the so called western or eastern left hand path one is talking about, so I don't really see it as an issue as context is always going to tell one what cultural and theological position one is coming from.

Another obvious distinction between the Western LHP and the Eastern LHP is the difference between the cultures involved, each culture having its own set of irrational hangups to overcome. (Eating a cow in the East would be a taboo, but in the West, it is not, for one example. Another example might be alcohol taboo in East, but not marijuana, whereas the taboos are switched in the West.)

Some 'eastern' LHP do eat cows though o.0 At least sometimes in some contexts.

I do believe that Zeena, who was for a short time High Priestess of the Temple of Set, is a Buddhist now.

That's what I heard, but as you said in a later post she still has ties to her Satanic roots.

I'm kind of in the same boat with my own Tantric practice. LHP manifests in many ways and so I incorporate Satanism into my Tantra. Just tonight I made some Satanic sigils out of blood to use later in rituals (cut myself on glass by accident and didn't want the blood to go to waste). It's why I see little difference if any between "western" and "eastern" Left Hand Path.

Well, there really isn't a problem here, I guess you could call this a 'false dichotomy '. On the one hand, we have people practising the left hand path' across various cultures and time periods, and on the other, you and a few others here at RF that keep trying to draw arbitrary lines based on what seems to be an utter lack of comprehension of the former.

You say this 'wlhp' was born with LaVey , yet every single thing I see represented here as 'wlhp' could be described as wishful thinking, spiritual pipe dreams, and mystical gobbledygook, all of which he made a point of mocking.

This is true, we also even have people here on RF that combine both so called eastern and western traditions and ideas. As someone on both sides of the fence in this regard I feel confident in saying that there isn't a terrible amount of difference that is any greater than the differences say between LaVeyanism and Luciferianism, both of which would be said to be 'western'. Actually I see more difference between LaVeyanism and Luciferianism than I would say see between Luciferianism and a Hindu LHP focused on something akin to Jnana Yoga. Those two are basically the same in that they seek enlightenment through knowledge and understanding, but with the Left Hand Path focus. And in the context of many types of Hindu philosophy it can be indistinguishable other than culture and symbolism in terms of that self deification.

 

[EtuMalku]

I think the differences alleged between so called eastern and western LHP's are little if any larger of diviation between the various so called western LHP traditions. So really the variation is little different than the variation in either the so called eastern or western left hand path.

Your argument could be expanded to ask what tradition within the so called western or eastern left hand path one is talking about, so I don't really see it as an issue as context is always going to tell one what cultural and theological position one is coming from.

I'm kind of in the same boat with my own Tantric practice. LHP manifests in many ways and so I incorporate Satanism into my Tantra. Just tonight I made some Satanic sigils out of blood to use later in rituals (cut myself on glass by accident and didn't want the blood to go to waste). It's why I see little difference if any between "western" and "eastern" Left Hand Path.

This is true, we also even have people here on RF that combine both so called eastern and western traditions and ideas. As someone on both sides of the fence in this regard I feel confident in saying that there isn't a terrible amount of difference that is any greater than the differences say between LaVeyanism and Luciferianism, both of which would be said to be 'western'. Actually I see more difference between LaVeyanism and Luciferianism than I would say see between Luciferianism and a Hindu LHP focused on something akin to Jnana Yoga. Those two are basically the same in that they seek enlightenment through knowledge and understanding, but with the Left Hand Path focus. And in the context of many types of Hindu philosophy it can be indistinguishable other than culture and symbolism in terms of that self deification.

A quick Google search on Western Left Hand Path resulted in 4,000 results. Below I highlighted a few of the first pages that discuss what we are discussing and added my own edits where I felt were needed for clarity.

The WLHP has evolved over time in to many different paths, including Satanism, Luciferianism, Setianism, Ahrimanism, Mercurænism and similar paths.They all share certain common traits – apathy towards cultural norms/values, a high respect for subjective experience, and perhaps most importantly, a focus on the individual Self (as something Isolate and unnatural from the objective universe). This is taken to the extreme extent of self-deification, whether that means becoming metaphorically godlike in this life, or literally continuing as godlike being after death.

Many people try and say that the WLHP is invalid and such because of this, as the traditional LHP in the East still had the goal of the loss of ego, nirvana, etc. This, however, is specifically WHY the WLHP specifies that it is not Eastern in its very name. The WLHP is also apathetic to values and such, rather than strictly heterodox in nature. In some of Don Webb’s texts from the Temple of Set, for instance, he explicitly explains that sometimes teaming up with authority can be a means to success and power.

The WLHP does not claim a relation to the ELHP, rather the ELHP seems to need to cling onto its legacy and therefore ends up attaching itself to the WLHP. Heterodoxy and loss of the self are not of interest to practitioners of the WLHP. It’s also ridiculous to claim that the WLHP somehow is not real or is inauthentic, and there are many academic works out there discussing the topic.

 

[Kapalika]

dude you conflate self and ego all you wat but nothing in LHP is strictly LHP as "eastern" LHP says u can do aspects of LHP and RHP together. in the end, its about approach to godhood. you cna twist it any way yuou want. but ulimately, the divsion between Western LHP and eatern LHP is not universal but subject to opinion

iv'e walked bot western and eastern LHP and the only difference IMO is that eastern is less focused on hedonism and more appreciation and understanding of true nature as a whole.

ill get back to this later;

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

If you cannot comprehend what I post I see no further reason to converse with you . . .

I can comprehend you fine, the problem is you aren't supporting anything you say with cogent argumentation or facts. I see you didn't bother to source any of your so called 'excerpts from 40,000 results '...

A quick Google search on Western Left HandPath resulted in 4,000 results.

Only, the word 'western' is mentioned only 3 times in the first 3 pages, with one of those being used in a totally different context than you are using it, the other two from RF users.Do you feel that being disingenuous will win you the internet?

 

[crossfire]

A quick Google search on Western Left Hand Path resulted in 4,000 results. Below I highlighted a few of the first pages that discuss what we are discussing and added my own edits where I felt were needed for clarity.

The WLHP has evolved over time in to many different paths, including Satanism, Luciferianism, Setianism, Ahrimanism, Mercurænism and similar paths.They all share certain common traits – apathy towards cultural norms/values, a high respect for subjective experience, and perhaps most importantly, a focus on the individual Self (as something Isolate and unnatural from the objective universe). This is taken to the extreme extent of self-deification, whether that means becoming metaphorically godlike in this life, or literally continuing as godlike being after death.

Many people try and say that the WLHP is invalid and such because of this, as the traditional LHP in the East still had the goal of the loss of ego, nirvana, etc. This, however, is specifically WHY the WLHP specifies that it is not Eastern in its very name. The WLHP is also apathetic to values and such, rather than strictly heterodox in nature. In some of Don Webb’s texts from the Temple of Set, for instance, he explicitly explains that sometimes teaming up with authority can be a means to success and power.

The WLHP does not claim a relation to the ELHP, rather the ELHP seems to need to cling onto its legacy and therefore ends up attaching itself to the WLHP. Heterodoxy and loss of the self are not of interest to practitioners of the WLHP. It’s also ridiculous to claim that the WLHP somehow is not real or is inauthentic, and there are many academic works out there discussing the topic.

I would say that this is an excellent summary, with the major glaring differences highlighted in big bold red letters. I completely agree.

 

[Adramelek]

Heterodoxy and loss of the self are not of interest to practitioners of the WLHP. It’s also ridiculous to claim that the WLHP somehow is not real or is inauthentic, and there are many academic works out there discussing the topic.

I agree with this except for the part about heterodoxy not being of interest to WLHP practitioners. Heterodox = contrary to or different from mundane and commonly accepted doctrines and beliefs. I find the word heterodoxy to be an all encompassing term for the Path of the Left.

 

[crossfire]

I agree with this except for the part about heterodoxy not being of interest to WLHP practitioners. Heterodox = contrary to or different from mundane and commonly accepted doctrines and beliefs. For me heterodoxy is an all encompassing term for the Path of the Left.

There is a difference between being an individual that actively seeks to separate oneself from the herd mentality, as contrasted to actively seeking to break laws, imo.

 

[EtuMalku]

het·er·o·dox
ˈhedərəˌdäks/
adjective
adjective: heterodox
not conforming with accepted or orthodox standards or beliefs

I believe this 'can' be of interest to the WLHP'er but is 'not' necessary to the Path itself nor does it define it
Rather the reversal of energy flow 'is' and that is the definition of Antinomianism which best reflects the WLHP practices

 

[Adramelek]

There is a difference between being an individual that actively seeks to separate oneself from the herd mentality, as contrasted to actively seeking to break laws, imo.

I agree and the word heterodox embraces the "individual that actively seeks to separate oneself from the herd mentality", not those "actively seeking to break laws".

 

[EtuMalku]

I can comprehend you fine, the problem is you aren't supporting anything you say with cogent argumentation or facts. I see you didn't bother to source any of your so called 'excerpts from 40,000 results '...



Only, the word 'western' is mentioned only 3 times in the first 3 pages, with one of those being used in a totally different context than you are using it, the other two from RF users.Do you feel that being disingenuous will win you the internet?

Your Googling skills suck . . . what can I say?

 

[Adramelek]

het·er·o·dox
ˈhedərəˌdäks/
adjective
adjective: heterodox
not conforming with accepted or orthodox standards or beliefs

I believe this 'can' be of interest to the WLHP'er but is 'not' necessary to the Path itself nor does it define it
Rather the reversal of energy flow 'is' and that is the definition of Antinomianism which best reflects the WLHP practices

I find that both terms antinomianism and heterodoxy reflect the WLHP equally.

 

[Onyx]

For those interested, Lords of the Left Hand Path offers a fairly detailed explanation of WLHP origins in chapter 3.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

Your Googling skills suck . . . what can I say?

You say that like casual readers can't check for themselves.

 

[EtuMalku]

You say that like casual readers can't check for themselves.

Do you just like to be heard or do ever bring anything substantial to the table?

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

Do you just like to be heard or do ever bring anything substantial to the table?

Given your last few posts have been dismissive snipe's, and that you are still unable or unwilling to flesh out your own position beyond a procession of bald faced assertions, I find this more than a tad ironic.

I get that you probably find this irritating, but stomping your feet and plugging your ears is hardly a convincing substitute for making and supporting your case.

 

[EtuMalku]

Given your last few posts have been dismissive snipe's, and that you are still unable or unwilling to flesh out your own position beyond a procession of bald faced assertions, I find this more than a tad ironic.

I get that you probably find this irritating, but stomping your feet and plugging your ears is hardly a convincing substitute for making and supporting your case.

Really? All the posts I made in regards to this subject matter and this is what you came away with?
Ok . . . what exactly are you looking for here?

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

OK, I'll spell it out for you once again, in simple terms.

Once upon a time, over 15 centuries ago, a term was coined to describe a certain type of practice, with specific goals and methods. Over the centuries, that practice grew and evolved, yet the core of what it was, those goals and methods, never really changed.

Now here you are, with totally different goals and methods, insisting that the term coined for that other thing should also apply to you, without being able to articulate exactly why, other than you are somehow entitled to it. And round and round we go.

 

[EtuMalku]

OK, I'll spell it out for you once again, in simple terms.

Once upon a time, over 15 centuries ago, a term was coined to describe a certain type of practice, with specific goals and methods. Over the centuries, that practice grew and evolved, yet the core of what it was, those goals and methods, never really changed.

Now here you are, with totally different goals and methods, insisting that the term coined for that other thing should also apply to you, without being able to articulate exactly why, other than you are somehow entitled to it. And round and round we go.

I'm pretty sure myself and Mandi clearly listed the defining points between Eastern and Western Left Hand Paths . . . where are you confused?

1. Original Left Hand Path, usually Tantric, from religions like Hinduism and Buddhism.
2. Referring to "black magic" or "bad" or failed" practitioners. Used by people like Blavatsky and Crowley.
3. To refer to hedonistic/egotistical philosophies with moral relativism (such as LaVeyan Satanism).
4. Used by western occult groups like the Typhonian Order who used the term in a way pretty close to #1.
5. In 1992 the book "Lords of the Left Hand Path" was written using a much newer definition of the term making a fifth designation.

All of these differ, if only slightly in some cases, but enough to designate them differently from one another
Obviously you disagree . . . so, what makes them all the same thing to you?