'western' and 'eastern' LHP

[Kapalika]

I've seen a lot of people saying things the last few days over several topics and it's very clear that many of us are not even using the same definitions.

I prefer my usage to be clear and not redefine anything, but I'm also aware language changes and I can't control others. But I would suggest that people in these conversations at least define in layman's terms what they mean when they use a term in a new(er) way. *mumbles something about how people use "literally" and "ironic" these days*

Reality is not necessarily just the objective universe

How? When? In what way is my question. That's why I asked if it was contrasted to some other layer of reality. Also, the Universe is everything that exists by the normal definition, so qualifying it as objective doesn't specify much in my opinion.

I personally think that our subjective 'universe' (microcosm) is a part of the objective universe (macrocosm) but I don't normally use the term universe in this context as it's kind of confusing to talk about plural subjective universes. I usually use the term "subjective experience" to contrast "objective universe"; I find it more accurate. Also in my view our subjective experiences objectively exist.. that is to say the qualia of that experience truly does exist as a real thing. So really anything that exists at all objectively exists (even if the experience itself is subjective it's also objectively real)... I divide it into ideal, material, real and unreal. It's all objectively is a thing in some form, so to talk about something not objectively existing doesn't make any sense to me. Even characters in a novel exist in the mind of the author and on the paper, as fictitious as it might be. One can say they are unreal and just an idea, but not that they don't exist at least as an idea and part of a story.

Would you agree with any of this? Or disagree with any of it? What parts and how/why?

Also a serious question (as is the others); how do you feel your philosophical view of reality affects your practice of the Left Hand Path?

 

[Adramelek]

How? When? In what way is my question. That's why I asked if it was contrasted to some other layer of reality. Also, the Universe is everything that exists by the normal definition, so qualifying it as objective doesn't specify much in my opinion.

The Subjective Universe is the intelligent sentient beings individual interpretation and understanding of the Objective Universe. The SU (microcosmos) can be just as vast and complex as the OU (macrocosmos). Both are spectrums of reality and truth. Black Magick is the art of causing change within the subjective universe in order to produce a proportionate change within the objective universe in accordance with the Will of the sentient being. This deliberate willful change then becomes incorporated or infused within the fabric of the objective universe, another "layer of reality". This is an essential part of the philosophical foundation of the Western Left Hand Path tradition.

 

[EtuMalku]

Oh, so puppet master theory then? Like a separate 'soul' sort of thing that just drives us like a car?

Serious question, trying to understand.

Not exactly, read up on Gnosticism and Immanuel Kant

 

[EtuMalku]

"majiqal"?

Sorry, that is the term we use in my Order

Also how does something exist if it isn't part of reality?

I thought we weren't debating here? LOL

In the Western LHP you essentially have the following Realities:
1. Objective Universe (OU): Things are as they "are." Time, space, matter, energy, etc.
2. Subjective Universe (SU): Our unique personal perspective and experience of the OU. What we interpret and perceive it as.

The kind of implications that would make one Left Hand Path would relate to morality, good and evil, pure and impure, and the methods one might use or draw from that. Points 3 and 4 I would say articulate the best my beliefs on the subject, but as I've stressed at least a couple of times in the past Shiva in this context is symbolic and isn't the only Ishvara (divine inspiration) one can use for that place. Really it comes down to what the individual finds most powerful on a personal level.

Also, are you saying that one's isolate consciousness although already individualized and singular, doesn't realize the true extend of it until one is deified? Or is that part of an active process and not just one of perception?

Personally, I am not sure what this Higher Self / Isolate Consciousness knows, acts, etc. I am merely at the point of experiencing its presence now & then.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

Not exactly, read up on Gnosticism and Immanuel Kant

I am already fairly familiar with both of those, but naming names or general schools of thought does not really answer my question.

You said brain damage can "sever the connection" from your brain. The connection to what?

 

[Adramelek]

You said brain damage can "sever the connection" from your brain. The connection to what?

Extreme brain damage can result in the fragmentation of the psyche.

 

[EtuMalku]

I am already fairly familiar with both of those, but naming names or general schools of thought does not really answer my question.

You said brain damage can "sever the connection" from your brain. The connection to what?

Are you telling me that you have no idea what we are talking about?

 

[1137]

I don't get the belief that consciousness or intelligence is somehow magical or separate from nature. It's like these folk have never seen the results of brain damage or Alzheimer's.

One very physical blow with a physical hammer to the physical head can critically change or destroy this magical 'isolate self consciousness' with ease.

Does my broken radio imply that radio waves no longer exist?

Oh, so puppet master theory then? Like a separate 'soul' sort of thing that just drives us like a car?

Serious question, trying to understand.

For me, it's substance dualism. The body affects the mind, and the mind can affect the body.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

Are you telling me that you have no idea what we are talking about?

At this point I'm not even sure YOU know what you are talking about. Why do you keep dodging the question?

Does my broken radio imply that radio waves no longer exist?

Radio waves have a signal source. So we are soul-puppets then?

For me, it's substance dualism. The body affects the mind, and the mind can affect the body.

I just don't understand that leap of faith. Why that leap and not another?

 

[1137]

At this point I'm not even sure YOU know what you are talking about. Why do you keep dodging the question?



Radio waves have a signal source. So we are soul-puppets then?




I just don't understand that leap of faith. Why that leap and not another?

I don't agree with the radio analogy, just showing how easily questioned your position is. And it seems clear from study of the evidence, as well as reason, that there is at least some duality to the mind and body, even if the mind is emergent.

 

[EtuMalku]

I am already fairly familiar with both of those, but naming names or general schools of thought does not really answer my question.

You said brain damage can "sever the connection" from your brain. The connection to what?

Very well . . . the connection between lower self and Higher Self

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

I can see now this would need it's own thread, as no direct answer is forthcoming.

I retract the question.

 

[crossfire]

I don't see them as 'different' so much as one is defined and one is an arbitrary mess of whatever. It's hard to compare angles with a blob of jello.

Are you sure the word you are looking for isn't "chaotic" instead of "blob of jello?"

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

Are you sure the word you are looking for isn't "chaotic" instead of "blob of jello?"

Sure. Chaotic, undefined, mixed bag of whatever, choose any synonymous term you like. One is defined and thus meaningful, the other so divorced from meaning it might as well be the grunts and gestures of a frantic monkey. The latter leaves little room for neither any sort of intellectual discourse nor any sort of directed action or effort, never mind the futility of trying to use language to articulate something that can't be described because it has no real distinguishing characteristics.

It's a child's game.

 

[crossfire]

Sure. Chaotic, undefined, mixed bag of whatever, choose any synonymous term you like. One is defined and thus meaningful, the other so divorced from meaning it might as well be the grunts and gestures of a frantic monkey. The latter leaves little room for neither any sort of intellectual discourse nor any sort of directed action or effort, never mind the futility of trying to use language to articulate something that can't be described because it has no real distinguishing characteristics.

It's a child's game.

Do you think that the highly segmented Hindu culture said the same thing about the individual, experiential and free-form traditions of the Shramanas when they found themselves together in the same territory?

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

Probably not, as the latter actually had traditions. This wlhp jazz was born right here on RF less than a month ago. Nobody made that distinction(and still haven't properly made one) before two or three people on this board decided they should redefine the thing, without actually defining anything.

 

[EtuMalku]

Probably not, as the latter actually had traditions. This wlhp jazz was born right here on RF less than a month ago. Nobody made that distinction(and still haven't properly made one) before two or three people on this board decided they should redefine the thing, without actually defining anything.

As usual you are wrong . . . the Western Left Hand Path has been termed and defined for many many years . . . you need to get out more

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

As usual you are wrong . . . the Western Left Hand Path has been termed and defined for many many years . . . you need to get out more

Oh really? A Google search for 'western left hand path' has 3 matches, in total. 2 from here and one from an 18 day old Reddit post with a very familiar writing style. Interesting right?

The only ones using the qualifier 'western' are the ones that can't seem to grep what the following 3 letters mean.

You claim lavey founded this 'wlhp', yet he never made that distinction. Crowley didn't either. Why? Those guys knew why such a qualifier would be extraneous.

It's only you and the 2 or 3 other people on this board you have managed to convince. I mean, I'm open to a distinction being made, but you have yet to display any reason why the song you are singing, which has little to nothing to do with the LHP proper, should also be qualified with that same term. It reeks of desperation.

 

[EtuMalku]

Oh really? A Google search for 'western left hand path' has 3 matches, in total. 2 from here and one from an 18 day old Reddit post with a very familiar writing style. Interesting right?

The only ones using the qualifier 'western' are the ones that can't seem to grep what the following 3 letters mean.

You claim lavey founded this 'wlhp', yet he never made that distinction. Crowley didn't either. Why? Those guys knew why such a qualifier would be extraneous.

It's only you and the 2 or 3 other people on this board you have managed to convince. I mean, I'm open to a distinction being made, but you have yet to display any reason why the song you are singing, which has little to nothing to do with the LHP proper, should also be qualified with that same term. It reeks of desperation.

I never said LaVey founded the term, the distinction from the Eastern LHP has its roots in Mesopotamia, Egypt, I agree that recently the term has become better defined, but the ideal has been around since the dawn of mankind anywhere self-deification 'not' apotheosis has been practiced.

Pick up a book for a change and stop allowing Google to be your education.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

Perhaps the book of wildly unverified claims volume one? Or maybe How to argue without making an argument for dummies? Maybe I can borrow your copies?

Anyway, ancient Egypt? Pretty sure they have their own, completely separate cosmology and approach to said cosmology than the Hindus did, which look very different. So different in fact that they ARE different lol.

I get it though , your grasping at the ToS nonsense, which looks little to nothing like actual Egyptian mythology. I still remember Aquino's debate with an actual Egyptologist at 600..very enlightening stuff.

Your 'go read a book' mantra is getting tired man. If this thread is evidence of 'anything', it's that reading certainly doesn't always equate to understanding.