Were pre-Fall Adam and Eve "immortal"?

[moorea944]

My view is that Genesis (along with much of the Bible) is not literal and the story of Eden is fictitious.

Yeah, but doesnt Jesus and the apostles talk about that too? It was literal to them, why would you think it would be fictitious? What would the point be then if most of the OT is fiction....

 

[Neo Deist]

Yeah, but doesnt Jesus and the apostles talk about that too? It was literal to them, why would you think it would be fictitious? What would the point be then if most of the OT is fiction....

Yes, but the Gospels (Jesus story) were written by 3rd party, anonymous authors decades after his death, and they go out of their way to stretch and twist the story to make him fit the messiah mold. It was literal to them because they had very little scientific or medical knowledge as compared to today's standards. They tried to explain the world around them, and when they did not understand something they defaulted to the supernatural.

 

[Thief]

I would like to make a comment on your post if I may. I agree with you about immortality. Adam was not immortal. If your immortal, you dont die or sin. Bible says that if you sin, you die. Angels on the other hand, are not mortal, they are immortal. They dont sin or die. We are going to be like the angels at somepoint in time, esp, when Christ returns.

The translators have misinterpeted some verses that might suggest that, but if you read in the org, language, it says otherwise. Paul say, all angels do God's will. Not some, or half, all. There are no rebel angels in heaven at all. God IS in control of everything.

a story I grew up with .....God's favored had a problem
He doesn't live with God anymore

I don't believe in a secured position in heaven

 

[Thief]

My view is that Genesis (along with much of the Bible) is not literal and the story of Eden is fictitious.

very hard to believe....yes it is......
but

picture yourself as someone at a campfire hearing of it

and you are suppose to believe it....as is

things we know of in recent centuries make it possible to believe
medicine and science

 

[moorea944]

Yes, but the Gospels (Jesus story) were written by 3rd party, anonymous authors decades after his death, and they go out of their way to stretch and twist the story to make him fit the messiah mold. It was literal to them because they had very little scientific or medical knowledge as compared to today's standards. They tried to explain the world around them, and when they did not understand something they defaulted to the supernatural.

I disagree and I"ll tell you why.... All scripture is inspired by God. Meaning, God was working through the writers

 

[moorea944]

a story I grew up with .....God's favored had a problem
He doesn't live with God anymore

I don't believe in a secured position in heaven

So God is not in control of His creation or His dwelling place?

 

[Thief]

So God is not in control of His creation or His dwelling place?

it's called.....freewill

 

[Neo Deist]

I disagree and I"ll tell you why.... All scripture is inspired by God. Meaning, God was working through the writers

According to whom? Those same writers? How convenient.

Try this on for size...God has spoken to me and informed me that the Bible is not meant to be taken literally. It is highly symbolic and metaphorical. The important things to be taken from the Bible are the lessons on morality and compassion. Now, prove that God has not told me that through divine inspiration. You can't.

That is the reason that writers claim divine inspiration...they don't want others questioning anything, regardless of how idiotic it might sound.

 

[rusra02]

Rev is symbollic. There is no war in God's heaven, it is earth's heaven. It's talking about the Roman Empire. The policital heavens or government. I can explain further at another time. There could NEVER be an actual war in Heaven. Think about it.



The word for angel is Malek in Hebrew or Angelos in Greek, meaing Messenger. In most cases the translators got it right and put angel. Sometimes it should have been man when it was a messenger. Angels cannot sin. They are immortal, yes, they have free will, but that doesnt mean that they sin. Too many verses that indicate that. Jesus says that someday we will be like the angels. If angels can already sin, why would it matter to be like the angels. Doesnt make sense. Paul says that ALL angels do God's will.

The Bible reveals Angels were present to witness "when [God] founded the earth...When...all the sons of God began shouting in applause." (Job 38:4,7) Genesis 6:1,2 reports that "when men started to grow in number on the surface of the ground and daughters were born to them, the sons of the true God began to notice that the daughters of men were beautiful. So they began taking as wives all whom they chose." These "angels...did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place" to fulfill unnatural sexual desires for the attractive women of the pre-flood world.
(Jude 6) They sinned, just as the Bible says. (2 Peter 2:4)
Obviously I do not believe Revelation 12 was prophetic of the Roman Empire.

 

[Milton Platt]

We (wordmagnifiedabovenames and I) were getting sidetracked in the thread, Was it fair to kick Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden? So I thought of starting a new thread.

The question (or debate) was about the Tree of Life and immortality. I think everyone knows the story of how they ate the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and were expelled from the Garden, so we don't need to dwell on that. So let concentrate this thread on the Tree of Life, and whether they were immortal before they were punished or cursed.

wordmagnifiedabovenames' view was that Adam and Eve were created perfect, free of sins and immortal. They became imperfect, sinful and lost their immortality when they ate the forbidden fruit or when God cursed or punished them.

My view was that they were never immortal before God's decree at their Fall, unless they eat the fruit from the Tree of Life, which they never did. They were created mortals, and were always mortals. My view is that their punishment was not that they lost their immortality and became mortals, but that they would suffer in life and death from then on.

What do you think?

Do you think Adam and Eve were immortal before they ate the forbidden fruit?

Or do you think they were mortals unless they ate from the Tree of Life?
​

How did they know it was wrong to eat from the tree of knowledge if they did not understand the difference between good and evil and why were they condemned for knowledge they did not possess???

 

[Milton Platt]

So you're hoping to segregate the points to have the answer you want.

It is a misconception that eating the forbidden fruit would result in death.

Eating the forbidden fruit of knowledge is one thing.
Knowing you will die won't stop it from happening.

Crossing over into the next life is something else.
The tree of life....leads to eternity.

It was the knowledge of good and evil, specifically. Why would they be condemned for lack of knowledge they could not possess until they actually ate the fruit?

 

[Thief]

It was the knowledge of good and evil, specifically. Why would they be condemned for lack of knowledge they could not possess until they actually ate the fruit?

then you see the fault in what most people believe....
taking from the tree of knowledge led to condemnation

nay

it was needful to be sure the alteration performed on Adam had taken hold
that Man would be that creature wanting to know....even if death is the consequence

Man is that creature

 

[Milton Platt]

then you see the fault in what most people believe....
taking from the tree of knowledge led to condemnation

nay

it was needful to be sure the alteration performed on Adam had taken hold
that Man would be that creature wanting to know....even if death is the consequence

Man is that creature

Your post is incomprehensible.

 

[Kent856]

I think the tree was simply a way for Adam and Eve to express their free will. How do you prove a machine has free thought? Maybe put it in a perfect environment and tell it not to do something. If the machine is not free thinking it will follow it's parameters. However if it does have free will then it just might go against what you told it, proving in a way it has free will. (or it could just be broken, but i mean a perfect machine).

Not to say that was Gods intention from the beginning, i have no idea.

 

[Milton Platt]

I think the tree was simply a way for Adam and Eve to express their free will. How do you prove a machine has free thought? Maybe put it in a perfect environment and tell it not to do something. If the machine is not free thinking it will follow it's parameters. However if it does have free will then it just might go against what you told it, proving in a way it has free will. (or it could just be broken, but i mean a perfect machine).

Not to say that was Gods intention from the beginning, i have no idea.

Well, if you are an omniscient god, then the test is unnecessary, as you already know all things. So from a biblical point of view, your assertions do not hold true.

 

[Thanda]

I think the tree was simply a way for Adam and Eve to express their free will. How do you prove a machine has free thought? Maybe put it in a perfect environment and tell it not to do something. If the machine is not free thinking it will follow it's parameters. However if it does have free will then it just might go against what you told it, proving in a way it has free will. (or it could just be broken, but i mean a perfect machine).

Not to say that was Gods intention from the beginning, i have no idea.

In the Mormon Scripture called the book of Moses, the Garden of Eden command is recorded as follows:

16 And I, the Lord God, commanded the man, saying: Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat,

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but, remember that I forbid it, for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.​

 

[Thief]

Your post is incomprehensible.

so attempt a question for clarity
the confusion isn't mine

 

[Thief]

Well, if you are an omniscient god, then the test is unnecessary, as you already know all things. So from a biblical point of view, your assertions do not hold true.

not if you are seeking to have freewill in the spirits you hope to form

no fair poking around in the head of your creation
that's not freewill

 

[Prestor John]

I believe that the Creation and Adam and Eve in the Garden recorded in the Genesis account is literal.

I believe that before they had partaken of the forbidden fruit they were not mortal beings.