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Were not the Hebrews already in Israel in Egypt?

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Have you read the source presented on the thread? If not, I'll make a TL;DR version: There are no archeological or primary source material that tells of such event in either Egypt, the Sinai desert or Palestine. I would also like to add that the Torah was compiled after the exile in Babylon and that most of Hebrew's mythology and theological thoughts was greatly influenced by the Persian civilisation. A minority of scholar place the Torah has a product of hellenistic influence. it's probable that the Torah wasn't fixed and widely used before the rise of the Hasmonean dynasty since the Elephantine Papyri don't make any mention of such compilation of Hebrew myths and history.

The key word here is "compiled."
Now we don't know if the Torah WAS "compiled" at this time
but one thing is for sure - the post Babylonian Torah was no
different than the late Bronze Age Torah in its content.

Proof? 1 Samuel tells the story of the cultic center of Shiloh.
It was overrun by the Philistines and the Ark of Covenant
was taken. Remember the Ark? It was THE central part of
the 40 year Exodus from Egypt.

Well archaeologists have excavated Shiloh. They found
one of the "horns of the altar". They found sacrificial animal
bones - cut on the right side as Moses told them to. And
they found the destruction, just as Samuel said.

So how did Babylonian Jews make up this story if it didn't
happen a thousand years earlier?

And you see this sort of thing all through the Old Testament.
Strange cultural happenings that didn't make any sense to
the Jews of Babylonian times, but which turned up in modern
excavations.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
So what you seem to be saying is i don't know how how systems replicate so god did it. I am more of the sort tho says i dont know how x happened so i will try to find out.

No, that is not what I said at all......I said that what I see in the natural world and in the Universe tells me that there is a designer with greater power than humans can even imagine. To suggest that it was all a series of fortunate accidents that happened for no apparent reason, is more of a fairy story to me than the existence of a Being who is capable of creating the Universe and everything in it. Just because he doesn't fit flawed human testing is no reason to discount his existence, his creative genius or his intelligence.

And no god or other supernatural entity has ever been observed, which is why you need faith.

You believe in the air you breathe....can you see it? You believe in the force of the wind because you see what power it exerts on nature....but you can't see the wind either. You can observe what is not visible, like the wind because it is testable by human means. Science can claim to know about the existence of atoms, which, to my knowledge, no human has ever actually seen, so how do you so readily discount the existence of a supernatural Being who brought material things into existence because he wanted to?

Is "supernatural" really such an "unscientific" idea? It just means that which falls outside of human means to test or explain something. Do you really think science has progressed that far yet? Does it know all there is to know? If that is the case, then why rule out an Intelligent Designer? No one can state categorically that the Creator's existence is impossible, or that his written word is not a textbook for the life we are to live under the present circumstances.

The Creator gives us purpose and a hope for the future.....what can your beliefs give us?

I find your explanations to be less plausible or testable, than mine.
 
Last edited:

epronovost

Well-Known Member
The key word here is "compiled."
Now we don't know if the Torah WAS "compiled" at this time
but one thing is for sure - the post Babylonian Torah was no
different than the late Bronze Age Torah in its content.

Proof? 1 Samuel tells the story of the cultic center of Shiloh.
It was overrun by the Philistines and the Ark of Covenant
was taken. Remember the Ark? It was THE central part of
the 40 year Exodus from Egypt.

Well archaeologists have excavated Shiloh. They found
one of the "horns of the altar". They found sacrificial animal
bones - cut on the right side as Moses told them to. And
they found the destruction, just as Samuel said.

So how did Babylonian Jews make up this story if it didn't
happen a thousand years earlier?

And you see this sort of thing all through the Old Testament.
Strange cultural happenings that didn't make any sense to
the Jews of Babylonian times, but which turned up in modern
excavations.

...And yet there is no trace of Hebrew having been ever enslaved in Egypt or in errancy in the Sinai be it from archeological remains or in writting. Unless you find these, you don't have a leg to stand on. Believing a text with obvious signs of persian cultural influence and style wasn't changed substantially and that their history was meticulously remembered despite the fact it was still largely transmitted orally for over a 1000 years is quite a stretch. The fact that stretches of the Torah are correct or at least represent accurately their rituals and the sites of their main temples doesn't mean the events themselves are accurate; a lot clearly are not and cannot be due to various anachrononism for example or lack of clear timeline and datations.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
The key word here is "compiled."
Now we don't know if the Torah WAS "compiled" at this time
but one thing is for sure - the post Babylonian Torah was no
different than the late Bronze Age Torah in its content.

Proof? 1 Samuel tells the story of the cultic center of Shiloh.
It was overrun by the Philistines and the Ark of Covenant
was taken. Remember the Ark? It was THE central part of
the 40 year Exodus from Egypt.

Well archaeologists have excavated Shiloh. They found
one of the "horns of the altar". They found sacrificial animal
bones - cut on the right side as Moses told them to. And
they found the destruction, just as Samuel said.

So how did Babylonian Jews make up this story if it didn't
happen a thousand years earlier?

And you see this sort of thing all through the Old Testament.
Strange cultural happenings that didn't make any sense to
the Jews of Babylonian times, but which turned up in modern
excavations.
Do you have reliable sources for that? It seems the excavation is led by a Christian Apologetics Ministry (ABR) and I'm not sure if they are reliable. Do they publish in scientific journals?
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
...And yet there is no trace of Hebrew having been ever enslaved in Egypt or in errancy in the Sinai be it from archeological remains or in writting. Unless you find these, you don't have a leg to stand on. Believing a text with obvious signs of persian cultural influence and style wasn't changed substantially and that their history was meticulously remembered despite the fact it was still largely transmitted orally for over a 1000 years is quite a stretch. The fact that stretches of the Torah are correct or at least represent accurately their rituals and the sites of their main temples doesn't mean the events themselves are accurate; a lot clearly are not and cannot be due to various anachrononism for example or lack of clear timeline and datations.

You are correct - there 'appears' to be no evidence for the Hebrews in Egypt at that time.
Problems:
1 - most archaeological sites you need to access are under modern cities
2 - no Egyptian archaeologist wants to effect his career by finding support for Jewish narrative.
3 - lack of evidence doesn't mean it never happened. People said for years there was no House
of David, until it turned up.
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
You are correct - there 'appears' to be no evidence for the Hebrews in Egypt at that time.
Problems:
1 - most archaeological sites you need to access are under modern cities

Not really, the mount Sinai itself only has a small monastery on it (which is of historical importance but the Sinai itself is mostly desertic and a prime archeological site

2 - no Egyptian archaeologist wants to effect his career by finding support for Jewish narrative.

Too bad neither to Israeli, British and French archeologist who have all investigated the region ever found such proof and the source quoted on this thread is an Israeli newspaper. In fact Israeli archeologists are in complete agreement with the concensus that the Hebrews were never held captive in Egypt during the Middle-Kingdom Era.

3 - lack of evidence doesn't mean it never happened. People said for years there was no House
of David, until it turned up.

You are correct that all historians could be wrong, but in the current state of affair it would be ridiculous to make the claim the Hebrew were detained in Egypt. Maybe one day proofs will emerges, but until then it's pure fantasy and frankly unbelievable. The standard of proof for the existence of a small unstabble dynasty of kings in a small and short lived kingdom in Palestine is a lot smaller than that for the existence of tens of thousand of people escaping bondage in Egypt and living in the Sinai for decades without leaving a single trace behind them.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Interesting at face value, but it takes nothing about God’s care and direction for his people into consideration whilst he provided for them in the wilderness. He guided them by a pillar of fire at night, and a pillar of cloud by day. It says that their clothing and footwear did not wear out. They obviously had receptacles for their food (manna) and water (that were miraculously provided) that could not be replaced, so what might have prevented them from losing those receptacles? Can we discount God’s intervention in that as well? Could this explain why there were no shards of pottery found in the desert?

There's a story about the "rear guard" who were collectors, The tribe of Dan, cleaning up the trail and leaving no trace.

But it's not proof, it's just part of the story.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Not really, the mount Sinai itself only has a small monastery on it (which is of historical importance but the Sinai itself is mostly desertic and a prime archeological site



Too bad neither to Israeli, British and French archeologist who have all investigated the region ever found such proof and the source quoted on this thread is an Israeli newspaper. In fact Israeli archeologists are in complete agreement with the concensus that the Hebrews were never held captive in Egypt during the Middle-Kingdom Era.



You are correct that all historians could be wrong, but in the current state of affair it would be ridiculous to make the claim the Hebrew were detained in Egypt. Maybe one day proofs will emerges, but until then it's pure fantasy and frankly unbelievable. The standard of proof for the existence of a small unstabble dynasty of kings in a small and short lived kingdom in Palestine is a lot smaller than that for the existence of tens of thousand of people escaping bondage in Egypt and living in the Sinai for decades without leaving a single trace behind them.

Two problems with "evidence"
1 - dating - there's tons of evidence but dating is not agreed upon for the Exodus
2 - nomadic lifestyles. Right up until after King Solomon many Jews were nomadic
or lived in tents.

Studies of copper mines in Edom brought out the nomadic issue. How could some
hundred thousand mines be dug by Edomites when there were so few of them?
Answer - like the Jews at that time, most people lived in tents as nomadic or semi-
nomadic people.

Bible-era nomadic Edomite tribesmen were actually hi-tech copper mavens

To understand the miracle of an Exodus look at the 20th and 21st Century return
of the Jews to Israel. Something on a more vaster scale than leaving Egypt, and
something even more improbable.
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
Two problems with "evidence"
1 - dating - there's tons of evidence but dating is not agreed upon for the Exodus
2 - nomadic lifestyles. Right up until after King Solomon many Jews were nomadic
or lived in tents.

Studies of copper mines in Edom brought out the nomadic issue. How could some
hundred thousand mines be dug by Edomites when there were so few of them?
Answer - like the Jews at that time, most people lived in tents as nomadic or semi-
nomadic people.

Bible-era nomadic Edomite tribesmen were actually hi-tech copper mavens

To understand the miracle of an Exodus look at the 20th and 21st Century return
of the Jews to Israel. Something on a more vaster scale than leaving Egypt, and
something even more improbable.

No potery, no fire pits, no garbage pits, no altars, no discarted tools, no tombs, etc. No mention of them in Egypt no mention of them having escaped Egypt and killed a Pharaoh not even from Hittites.

Nomads leave traces, a lot of them too. We have 0.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
No potery, no fire pits, no garbage pits, no altars, no discarted tools, no tombs, etc. No mention of them in Egypt no mention of them having escaped Egypt and killed a Pharaoh not even from Hittites.

Nomads leave traces, a lot of them too. We have 0.

Yes, tons of traces of nomadic peoples - but which people and which age?
Furthermore there is no agreement on where the Hebrews were for 38 of
the 40 years in the "wilderness." Kadesh, the central point is disputed.

Egyptians did not record many defeats, nor did they mention slaves
leaving Egypt.

What's the big deal? Some Hebrews go to Egypt, like many other
Semites did when Egypt was under Semite rule. Later the Hebrews
leave Egypt and settle back in Canaan.
That's a far less amazing story than the story of modern day Zion.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
There's a story about the "rear guard" who were collectors, The tribe of Dan, cleaning up the trail and leaving no trace.

But it's not proof, it's just part of the story.

That would not surprise me, seeing as how the unbelievers demand evidence.....God might just withhold that evidence because he requires faith. :)
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
@sooda, somehow your answers will always be "it's a myth, it's fake, etc", which sounds odd, coming from someone who defines themselves as Christian, but whatever. :confused::)

This still doesn't answer the question, which is referring to the context of the Biblical story, whether it's true or not.
Why can't a Christian, or a Jew for that matter, accept reality? Demanding that one accept the clearly mythological parts of one's holy books only hurts a religion.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Why can't a Christian, or a Jew for that matter, accept reality? Demanding that one accept the clearly mythological parts of one's holy books only hurts a religion.
That's also evading the question. Whether the question is based on fact or fiction is a whole 'nother subject.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
That's also evading the question. Whether the question is based on fact or fiction is a whole 'nother subject.

Not really since I do not claim to be a Christian and cannot answer for them. And that is fiction is an integral part of the debate. I do know that there are many Christians, probably the majority, that do not take the Bible literally. The same seems to apply to the Jews. The Bible does not even claim to be literally true. I would think that the Torah and other Jewish holy books do not make that error either. Why do you think that one needs to believe them to be literally true?
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Why do you think that one needs to believe them to be literally true?
You're right, it's not all literally true, but it does all reflect a truthness of reality as to how creation operates under God. Therefore, I can't making a sweeping statement for all of the Bible.
Regarding specifically the Exodus: it's one of our basics of faith. Open the Tanach and you'll see So. Many. References. To the Exodus. Open up books of Jewish thought and you'll find so many ideas based off of the Exodus. The Exodus, to a Jew, is not at all confined to the boundaries of Passover Night. It's year-round, for millennia.
As such, this is one instance in which we simply cannot come and say: This did not happen. Because it's a defining moment of our history, both in physical terms and in spiritual terms.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You're right, it's not all literally true, but it does all reflect a truthness of reality as to how creation operates under God. Therefore, I can't making a sweeping statement for all of the Bible.
Regarding specifically the Exodus: it's one of our basics of faith. Open the Tanach and you'll see So. Many. References. To the Exodus. Open up books of Jewish thought and you'll find so many ideas based off of the Exodus. The Exodus, to a Jew, is not at all confined to the boundaries of Passover Night. It's year-round, for millennia.
As such, this is one instance in which we simply cannot come and say: This did not happen. Because it's a defining moment of our history, both in physical terms and in spiritual terms.

And what does it mean if nothing like the story even came close to happening?
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
And what does it mean if nothing like the story even came close to happening?
In some ways, Judaism could topple over. And if Judaism topples, so does Christianity (though some may not realize it) and perhaps even parts of Islam. As they say, "It would make one big boom." I'm sure this is every hardcore atheist's dream. :rolleyes:;)
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
No, that is not what I said at all......I said that what I see in the natural world and in the Universe tells me that there is a designer with greater power than humans can even imagine.

Thats what i said but in different words?

To suggest that it was all a series of fortunate accidents that happened for no apparent reason, is more of a fairy story to me than the existence of a Being who is capable of creating the Universe and everything in it. Just because he doesn't fit flawed human testing is no reason to discount his existence, his creative genius or his intelligence.

Chemistry is far more plausible than god magic, i can show chemistry exists in reality, can you do the same for a supernatural creator?

You believe in the air you breathe....can you see it? You believe in the force of the wind because you see what power it exerts on nature....but you can't see the wind either. You can observe what is not visible, like the wind because it is testable by human means. Science can claim to know about the existence of atoms, which, to my knowledge, no human has ever actually seen, so how do you so readily discount the existence of a supernatural Being who brought material things into existence because he wanted to?

You can measure air, its something of a straw man in this discussion
Atoms have been observed using scanning electron microscopes, and now sow can quantum particles
New Microscope Shows the Quantum World in Crazy Detail

Is "supernatural" really such an "unscientific" idea? It just means that which falls outside of human means to test or explain something. Do you really think science has progressed that far yet? Does it know all there is to know? If that is the case, then why rule out an Intelligent Designer? No one can state categorically that the Creator's existence is impossible, or that his written word is not a textbook for the life we are to live under the present circumstances.

Therefore unscientific. Science is filling man of the gaps filled by god belief, more are following often. So would you reconsider if science came up with a definitive conclusion regarding the supernatural?
Why rule out a designer? Because most of the claims attributed to god are proven false and it is far more logical to actually observe nature and provide a scientific explanation. For example, it it not known how the universe began. You say god did it,end of story, i say i know 29 hypothesis, all are either physically possible based on observation and/or measurement or are mathematically viable and non say god.


The Creator gives us purpose and a hope for the future.....what can your beliefs give us?

That is your belief, i can only assume you think that way because you fear not knowing the future. My belief can be tested, the 1st law of thermodynamics tells me my component atoms will live forever, may one day help create a new life (we are all made of dead people), maybe one day help create a new star that will provide light on a new planet and help abiogenesis there. Thats reality and it beats imagination eveey tine

I find your explanations to be less plausible or testable, than mine.

I am sure you do, i find reality more scientifically testable than mythology
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Still evading the question. The question is based solely on the content of the Bible, which says, as @calm correctly stated, that the Land of Israel's borders are from the Red Sea to the Euphrates River, meaning the Sinai Desert is Israel. Yet it also states that Moses never entered the Land of Israel.

If it's hard to think about it like that, how about substituting Israel for Narnia. The larger Narnia includes Calormen, Archenland, Telmar and a bunch of other fictional countries. If Moses stood in Archenland, which is technically part of Narnia, then that means that Moses was actually in Narnia. Why does CS Lewis then proceed to say that Moses never entered Narnia, if he actually did enter Narnia? :D

@ Calm is mistaken.. Egypt controlled Sinai and Canaan. The Hebrews were just a tribe of landless Canaanites... from the northern coast of Syria.
 
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