We're going to lose Afghanistan

[sun rise]

Lose Afghanistan?
Nah.
We never had it.

I'm sure we could have done a better job but fundamentally the people there did not care enough. The taliban put their butts on the line. "our side" was corrupt and not motivated to win.

Iraq turned out to be different. It would be instructive to understand what it was about Iraq that caused the different outcome.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm sure we could have done a better job but fundamentally the people there did not care enough. The taliban put their butts on the line. "our side" was corrupt and not motivated to win.

Iraq turned out to be different. It would be instructive to understand what it was about Iraq that caused the different outcome.

Our leaders don't have the smarts to discern when
nation building will work & when it won't. Recognizing
this means that avoiding war is best.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I have a plan to convert them.
It will work.
But you won't like it.
(Even I don't like it.)

Spoiler: My plan

Total annihilation of the opposition.
If friendlies get in the way, they'll die too.
Winning means being more callous....but a productive kind of callous.
Not simply more reckless disregard.

I'm going to assume that while you have your tongue firmly in your cheek, you are also speaking somewhat seriously. I can understand that -- when things are really bad, part of our coping mechanism is to find some lightness, somewhere. When the best people I ever knew were dying of AIDS, the jokes I told gave the lie to the tears in my eyes. But it kept me going.

Sometimes, it is all too true, it is necessary to do some harm to do more good. It may be that the surgical removal of a bone cancer in a leg may cost the leg itself. But the body lives on, and though the cost was huge, the result was a good thing overall.

I think it is true that there are human groups -- like the Taliban, Al Quaida, maybe Q-Anon (even possibly Republicans, but leave that for now ) -- that for the sake of the "body" of all humanity, it is best that they be excised. And that may, probably will, result in some unavoidable loss to that whole "human body." Regrettable, but perhaps necessary.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Our leaders don't have the smarts to discern when
nation building will work & when it won't. Recognizing
this means that avoiding war is best.

Not just our leaders, none of us can foresee all of the outcomes of our actions.

 

[Revoltingest]

Not just our leaders, none of us can foresee all of the outcomes of our actions.

To use go analogy…..
Creating bad aji yields bad outcomes, even though we don’t know
the specifics...just that the opponent will use it to their advantage.
So make good opening moves that are sabaki.

In short, don't violate anything in the Powell doctrine.

 

[Kooky]

Iraq turned out to be different. It would be instructive to understand what it was about Iraq that caused the different outcome.

Iraq hadn't been in a state of disintegration for the past 30-odd years, for once.

 

[F1fan]

I'm going to assume that while you have your tongue firmly in your cheek, you are also speaking somewhat seriously. I can understand that -- when things are really bad, part of our coping mechanism is to find some lightness, somewhere. When the best people I ever knew were dying of AIDS, the jokes I told gave the lie to the tears in my eyes. But it kept me going.

Sometimes, it is all too true, it is necessary to do some harm to do more good. It may be that the surgical removal of a bone cancer in a leg may cost the leg itself. But the body lives on, and though the cost was huge, the result was a good thing overall.

I think it is true that there are human groups -- like the Taliban, Al Quaida, maybe Q-Anon (even possibly Republicans, but leave that for now ) -- that for the sake of the "body" of all humanity, it is best that they be excised. And that may, probably will, result in some unavoidable loss to that whole "human body." Regrettable, but perhaps necessary.

There's a sort of no win situation in all this. In total war slash and burn is acceptable. It achieves the ends. It makes no excuses for the brutality of response to brutality.

There's a certain nobility in standing up to terrorists while protecting all innocent citizens. But the only way to do that is take casualties. That's not acceptable. War has changed since the 40's. It's not like the era where troops stood on a battlefield and shot at each other as townsfolk sat on hillsides and watched. Modern war is ugly in its own ways.

 

[Aupmanyav]

And to some politicians the deaths and permanent injury to some soldiers is worth the cost. Money and power, dangerous combo.

Well, we all have our choices. They say a stitch is better than nine at a later time. In Afghanistan, that time is over. If war has to come, it will. Taliban will expand into Central Asian countries, the Khorasan Caliphate.

 

[sun rise]

Well, we all have our choices. They say a stitch is better than nine at a later time. In Afghanistan, that time is over. If war has to come, it will. Taliban will expand into Central Asian countries, the Khorasan Caliphate.

In my youth, we had a "domino affect" where loss of Vietnam would lead to all of Southeast Asia becoming communist. It did not happen.

 

[F1fan]

Well, we all have our choices. They say a stitch is better than nine at a later time. In Afghanistan, that time is over. If war has to come, it will. Taliban will expand into Central Asian countries, the Khorasan Caliphate.

The stomach for war includes the will to go after your enemy until they are eliminated. Vietnam broke that will. When the army became a job for a guy with a family the will to sacrifice was gone.

For the USA to wage this kind of war we needed hard military units. In essence we needed units like the SS units Germany had in WW2. I've long thought the USA could look to the many men in prisons who have little to lose and offer them jobs in these units. I have no expertise in military formation and discipline nor the law, so I could be terribly naive on this. But what the USA has done certainly didn't work.
.

 

[Aupmanyav]

When the army became a job for a guy with a family the will to sacrifice was gone.
I've long thought the USA could look to the many men in prisons who have little to lose and offer them jobs in these units.

Such people will join the enemy for money. An army needs people dedicated to their duty in spite of having families. Some have been doing it for generations despite losses. India is fortunate to have such an army.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

And if we didn't go after him then more attacks on the West would have occurred. Its not just one man, its a whole network : they were later found in a compound in Pakistan conveniently near a military base which suggests Pakistani involvement


By the way, @ChristineM and @Altfish will happily blame the Tories for everything when Iraq was Labour's decision.

Indeed labour was in power, but it had encouragement and support from the Tories, who would have been even more enthusiastic were they in power at the time.

You should remember that Iraqis had already invaded Kuwait. So they were no more innocents.

 

[Justanatheist]

By the way, @ChristineM and @Altfish will happily blame the Tories for everything when Iraq was Labour's decision.

An excellent example of why socialists did not support Tony Blair.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Such people will join the enemy for money. An army needs people dedicated to their duty in spite of having families. Some have been doing it for generations despite losses. India is fortunate to have such an army.

India lost countless men in the first and second world war. The were brave and very effective fighters.

 

[Justanatheist]

India lost countless men in the first and second world war. The were brave and very effective fighters.

And lets not forget it was Germany a christian country who encouraged Jihad in the first world war.

 

[Aupmanyav]

4 generations in armed forces
They participated in all wars from WWI to Kargil (1999) and are still in it.
4 generations in armed forces: WW-II veteran recalls family tree | Ludhiana News - Times of India