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Were do we find Salvation today

Discussion in 'Christianity DIR' started by glasgowchick, Jun 21, 2005.

  1. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    Since this is the quote of Jesus, the question is, what other words of Jesus do you doubt?
    The NT says Jesus is the "word made flesh" which is a methaphor for the Torah. Jesus said if you hear my Words/Torah and believe in WHO sent Me (Y H V H / God )you have eternal life. (my paraphrase) So Jesus is the preacher who delivered the truth and the truth has set his listeners free, Torah always demands obedience so each hearer would do what the Torah instructs and thereby fulfill the mitzvot/commandments which includes baptism/mikvah and repentance. Most assurredly you are not implying that before the cross there was no salvation by grace! Are you?

    Check out John Garr and Karl Coke of Restoration Foundation and Restore magazine.
    Good Christian teachers.
     
  2. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    There is no words of Jesus I doubt at all, The great commission for Christains is to tell the Good news, baptizing all that believe in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit teaching them to observe all the He commanded. So when you talk of obedience, we have to be obedient to baptism. Before the cross, Jesus was still alive so he forgave sins, I believe those who died before Jesus came to earth lived by faith and obedience to God, But since Jesus was the first to be raised from the dead, no -one had been risen before then, After His death all those saints who died, their tombs where open at the time of Jesus death...But after the cross we live by faith, and as discussed above when we hear, believe, repent, confess Christ, and be baptized we are being obediant to the Commandment of God.
    Where will I find those mags at ? sound interesting thanks.... :D
     
  3. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Hi, Chick.

    From what you've said, I gather that you may be referring to the fact that during the three-day period during which His body lay in the tomb, Jesus visited (in spirit form) the spirits of those individuals who had died prior to His lifetime and who consequently had no knowledge of His gospel. Do you believe that all of the individuals He taught accepted His message? How do you see the future of those, if any, who rejected His gospel when they heard it?

    I'm especially curious as to what you see as the fate of those millions of individuals who have lived since Jesus' lifetime, but who never had the opportunity to know of Him. What about the 4th century woman living in some tribal village in Africa or the man living in 11th century Mongolia or someone living today in a part of the world where the practice of Christianity is strictly prohibited. Are your ideas as to what will happen to them any more specific than "God will work everything out"? As you have pointed out, the scriptures make it pretty clear that a belief in Jesus as the Christ is essential for salvation. How do you reconcile the idea that we must believe in Christ to be saved with the idea that God is loving, forgiving and merciful -- if you believe that He is all of these things?
     
  4. Hirohito18200

    Hirohito18200 Member

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    From what I have been told, God will reveal himself directly to those people... which through easy extrapolation would lead to the creation of other religious through their interpritations of God. Now either these interpritations can be accepted, and the religions validated (at least until they came into contact with christianity) or they can be denied, and since no jewish settlements composed of Africans or Mongolians ever popped up, i think we can assume that God was never received by any of these people. If the religions are to be temporarily validated, then why should we assume that as soon as the christianity is heard, the validated religion, having not changed at all, will instantly become evil and a misleading path? Furthermore, how could the followers of that religion who are culturally intertwined with it be expected to immediately abandon it in favor of a new, supposedly more correct/direct interpritation? You either except relativism (oh god no!) or damn everyone retroactively to hell for all eternity :eek:(oops) just my 2 gil:cool:
     
  5. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Well, I don't exactly see eye-to-eye with you on how it's all going to work out. I just hope you didn't think I was implying that all religions other than Christianity are evil and misleading, because that's certainly not my opinion. I neither accept relativism nor do I damn all non-Christians to hell. There's actually a third option, but I haven't got the time tonight to delve into it.
     
  6. Hirohito18200

    Hirohito18200 Member

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    it's ok, i heard it from some LDS missionaries who were gracious enough to talk at my traditionalist school, it was just so slippery and inconclusive that I sort of disregarded it, don't mean to offend
     
  7. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    http://www.restorationfoundation.org/ Enjoy, it is good reading, strong factual and honest.
     
  8. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    Hi Ronald and thanks, I will be sure to have a look at the site. :D
     
  9. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    Hi Kat, No I was reffering to the time when Jesus took His last breath on the cross, Im Mathew 27:50-52 It says" then Jesus shouted out again and released his Spirit 51 At that moment the curtain in the sanctuary of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom, the earth shook, rocks split apart 52 and tombs opened The Bodies of many godly men and women who had died were raised from the dead..

    Did everybody except Jesus message, No..what will be the future of those people, well I for one will leave the judging up to Christ Jesus but if you want a Biblical reply Mark 16:16 tell us Anyone who Believes and is baptized will be saved, But anyone who refuses to believe will be condemned..These are Jesus words not mine, so one would have to answer that question for themselves..

    What about the forth century women or those who have never heard the message, Again Im not going to sit in Judgement and this may sound like a cope out answer But God will do what he will do, so lets leave that part to Him and tell the goodnews to those we can, and if they believe baptize them...That's all we can do...You are not alone with those questions but I dare not go beyond what is written, It is not my place to say what God will and won't do because then I would be sitting in Gods place playing Judge.

    How do I reconcile that we must have a belief in Christ to be saved with God is loving and merciful ..Good question and again your not alone with these thoughts, Its a question I have heard before and the Only way I can reconcile it is like this...Since I believe there is a place called hell or a place of torment for unrepented sinners, It is not God that sends us there, we send ourselves there, by refusing Gods way of salvation..The Bible tells us that God Loved the world so much that he sent His only Son to die for us..It was because of his love and mercy towards man he made a way through Christ.God is also a God of wrath and I guess this is the side of God that people don't want to see or understand how a loving God Could send anyone to a place of torment.
    Romans1: 18 tells us " But God will shows His anger from Heaven against all sinful, wicked people who supress the truth by their wickedness, 19..They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them 20 For ever since the world was created people have seen the earth and sky Through everything God made they can clearly see his invisable qualities--his eternal power and divine nature, So they have no excuse for not knowing God.21..Yes they knew God but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks and they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result their minds became dark and confused 22. claiming to be wise they instead became utter fools. 23 instead of worshiping the glorious ever living God they worshipped Idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 so God abandoned them to do what shameful things their heart desired, as a result they did vile and degrading things with eachothers bodies. 25 They traded the truth about God for a lie, so they worshiped and served the things God Created instead of the creator Himself..

    As we can see from these verses, if we choose to do all our little hearts desire, God will abandon us...He hates Sin, He is a loving merciful God but he is also a Just God and will punish sin...So yes God is loving and merciful and doesn't want anyone to persish and through His love and mercy he made a way for us to have eternal life, it is a free gift from God it is up to us to except it. I hope this has been helpful. :D
     
  10. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I'm not offended in the slightest, just confused. How on earth can you describe it as "slippery"? Either you didn't understand it correctly or you have a very unusual definition of the word "slippery." I don't think there is a more logical or reasonable alternative anywhere. I'm not trying to be pushy, either, but I would honestly like to explore why you described this doctrine in the terms you did.
     
  11. Hirohito18200

    Hirohito18200 Member

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    I make this comment because, in my experience, LDS theology is some of the most hard to grasp because it changes constantly. The missionaries I mentioned would not give a definitive answer as to either who will be saved in general, or the necesity of being a Christian of an LDS. Also, many other issues such as Elohim becoming God, the nature of the virgin birth, ect, were quite convaluted to say the least. They danced around every question, although the missionary thought it odd when we asked him why God would, prior to 197x, forbid blacks from the congregation, as he was native Hawaiian lol. Also, temple marriage and the significance of women in the congregation was in the air as well. Furthermore, they come out and say "We believe in the Trinity", where their definition is completely different from traditionalist views (as you have made clear).
     
  12. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Yup, you're "confused" all right! Confused and misinformed. But since you didn't ask for clarification or more information, and since I'm not here to cram my religion down anybody's throat, I won't bother addressing any of your statements -- all of which I find inaccurate to one degree or another. But thanks for your response.

    Kathryn
     
  13. Hirohito18200

    Hirohito18200 Member

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    way to take a lead from the other guy, its not as funny the second time aruond

    and we did as for clarification about the information, and the representatives were unable to put forth any intelligent responses. Therefore, I am inclined to believe that your missionaries lack the required education to perform their work. Also, I do not feel it is my responsibility that others come to me with enough information to be taken seriously. Having gone back to your own sources for clarification, I found that your literature contradicted your missionaries, so again, I do not fell all too bad. Since you are not inclined to defend yourself, or bother to clear up any misunderstandings in the name of communication, so be it.
     
  14. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Okay, (1) I wasn't looking for a fight, and (2) I don't like to change the direction of someone else's thread midway through the discussion, but seeing as you have interpreted my silence as an inability to defend my position, I will respond. Hopefully, my response won't end up turning this thread into an anti-Mormon discussion. I'm sure the author of the thread didn't have that in mind.

    (1) LDS theology is essentially the same today as it was in 1840, ten years after the Church was formally organized. On the other hand, we haven't taken it upon ourselves to tell God He's through talking to us and we're through listening to Him. If He has something to say, we're ready to hear Him speak.

    (2) The missionaries may not have given you a definitive answer as to who will be saved because they're not going to be involved in the decision. However, it's a fact that the LDS concept of heaven is the most all-inclusive (short of a free-for-all) of any Christian denomination. We certainly don't believe we're going to be the only ones there, nor do we believe that one must be a Christian to go to heaven.

    (3) The Church has no official doctrine regarding God's beginnings. While it is true that several of our leaders have spoken on the subject, not one of their sermons or statements on the subject has ever been canonized. You can't expect the missionaries, or any member of the Church for that matter, to give you a definitive answer when there isn't one.

    (4) It has always been the doctrine of the Church that Jesus Christ was born to a virgin. We do not, however, believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary as the Catholics do. I don't see anything at all convoluted about what either the Bible or the Book of Mormon has to say about Christ's birth.

    (5) So you asked a native Hawaiian why the priesthood was withheld from the blacks prior to 1978 and he was unable to answer your question to your satisfaction. And you found that amusing? Why? Are Hawaiians supposed to know something the rest of us don't? The ban had nothing at all to do with skin color; it was related strictly to lineage and followed an Old Testament precedent.

    (6) What about temple marriage and the significance of women in the congregation was "in the air"? If you want an answer, you'll have to ask a question.

    (7) Well, if the missionaries you spoke to told you they believed in the Trinity, they were two individuals out of 12 million. I've been a member of the Church for 56 years, and I can tell you for a fact that we do not accept this doctrine.

    Kathryn
     
  15. Hirohito18200

    Hirohito18200 Member

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    very well; in the name of perserving the integrity of the thread, i will continue this discussion via PM's
     
  16. enton

    enton Member

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    In Jeremiah 6:16 you can read " Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein. "

    The Lord admonished but what did other respond?

    So taked heed:

    1 John 4:1 says " Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. "

    Don`t forget there is a congregation that is of God and you can read it in the Bible.

    Psalms 82:1 A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

    So for short, I`m inviting you to observe (us)
    1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
    1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
     
  17. Sabio

    Sabio Active Member

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    By Charles G Phinney


    Ordinarily, there are three agents employed in the work of conversion, and one instrument. The agents are God,--some person who brings the truth to bear on the mind,--and the sinner himself. The instrument is the truth. There are always two agents, God and the sinner, employed and active in every case of genuine conversion.

    1. The agency of God is two-fold; by his Providence and by his Spirit.

    (1.) By his providential government, he so arranges events as to bring the sinner's mind and the truth in contact. He brings the sinner where the truth reaches his ears or his eyes. It is often interesting to trace the manner in which God arranges events so as to bring this about, and how he sometimes makes every thing seem to favor a revival. The state of the weather, and of the public health, and other circumstances concur to make every thing just right to favor the application of truth with the greatest possible efficacy. How he sometimes sends a minister along, just at the time he is wanted! How he brings out a particular truth, just at the particular time when the individual it is fitted to reach is in the way to hear!

    (2.) God's special agency by his Holy Spirit. Having direct access to the mind, and knowing infinitely well the whole history and state of each individual sinner, he employs that truth which is best adapted to his particular case, and then sets it home with Divine power. He gives it such vividness, strength, and power, that the sinner quails, and throws down his weapons of rebellion, and turns to the Lord. Under his influence, the truth burns and cuts its way like fire. He makes the truth stand out in such aspects, that it crushes the proudest man down with the weight of a mountain. If men were disposed to obey God, the truth is given with sufficient clearness in the Bible; and from preaching they could learn all that is necessary for them to know. But because they are wholly disinclined to obey it, God clears it up before their minds, and pours in a blaze of convincing light upon their souls, which they cannot withstand, and they yield to it, and obey God, and are saved.

    2. The agency of men is commonly employed. Men are not mere instruments in the hands of God. Truth is the instrument. The preacher is a moral agent in the work; he acts; he is not a mere passive instrument; he is voluntary in promoting the conversion of sinners.

    3. The agency of the sinner himself. The conversion of a sinner consists in his obeying the truth. It is therefore impossible it should take place without his agency, for it consists in his acting right. He is influenced to this by the agency of God, and by the agency of men. Men act on their fellow-men, not only by language, but by their looks, their tears, their daily deportment. See that impenitent man there, who has a pious wife. Her very looks, her tenderness, her solemn, compassionate dignity, softened and moulded into the image of Christ are a sermon to him all the time. He has to turn his mind away, because it is such a reproach to him. He feels a sermon ringing in his ears all day long.

    http://www.charlesgfinney.com/1868Lect_on_Rev_of_Rel/68revlec01.htm
     
  18. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    Everlasting salvation is possible only through Christ’s ransom sacrifice.

    She will give birth to a son, and you must call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.....matthew 1;21

    He purposely came to earth "to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many." (Matthew 20:28)

    Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many.

    (1 Timothy 2:6) who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—[this is] what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times.​


    (Titus 2:14) who gave himself for us that he might deliver us from every sort of lawlessness and cleanse for himself a people peculiarly his own, zealous for fine works.​


    (Hebrews 9:28) so also the Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many; and the second time that he appears it will be apart from sin and to those earnestly looking for him for [their] salvation

    the now resurrected and enthroned Jesus is in a position to give salvation to all who meet God’s requirements

    And I heard a loud voice in heaven say:​

    "Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ...rev 12;10

     
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