1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured We're all just cowards

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Tranquil Servant, Feb 17, 2019.

  1. Tranquil Servant

    Tranquil Servant Was M.I.A for a while

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2012
    Messages:
    618
    Ratings:
    +61
    Religion:
    Servant of Christ
    OMG! Sooooo funny but true ;) I laughed so much after reading this part:tearsofjoy:
     
  2. Tranquil Servant

    Tranquil Servant Was M.I.A for a while

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2012
    Messages:
    618
    Ratings:
    +61
    Religion:
    Servant of Christ
    I argued using this same point one time in a thread I started a while ago...Blind Faith
    ;)
     
  3. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    3,151
    Ratings:
    +911
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    So did the cow drink? Don't answer that. I already know... Nah. ;)
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  4. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2017
    Messages:
    4,914
    Ratings:
    +4,842
    Religion:
    None
    I don't find the Christian Bible valuable. I have read it cover-to-cover three times, and thousands of passages from it. I haven't found a single idea in it to be useful. Some are correct, but the Bible doesn't have exclusive access to those ideas, nor was the first to state them.

    Can you give me an idea from the Bible that was first written there and that has value to mankind? Which ideas are original to the Bible? I imagine that praising the meek can be found nowhere in earlier writings, perhaps not in later ones either. But is this a good idea? Meekness is an undesirable quality except in the eyes of those willing to exploit others. Meekness is a disease of the spirit - the failure to evolve to the level of an individual willing to take a stand for himself and that in which he believes. It is not the same as humility, which is a virtue.

    Or maybe you like turning the other cheek? That seems original to the Bible. Others recommend forgiving, or trying to negotiate a peace, or just walking away. Offering the uninjured cheek to the one who just injured the other one is not good advice. It merely encourages additional violence, and depicts the victim as weak and foolish.

    At this point, the believer often informs me that this is not what the scripture means. It means to forgive. No it doesn't. If it meant that, it would say that. Instead, it says to simple turn your head and ready yourself for a second blow.

    I see a Bible filled with internal contradiction, unkept promises, failed prophesies, intellectual and moral errors attributed to an allegedly otherwise perfect god, and errors of science and history. By your reckoning, this justifies my seeing glaring evidence of the Bible's inauthenticity.

    I've already explained this.

    They are not objective evidence. They may be evidence to you, but they are not objective if they exist only in your mind. Nor are they evidence for anybody for whom they are not evident.

    Then I think that you didn't understand what I wrote.

    I understand the anti-intellectualism of much religious belief. Academia and reason are the enemy of faith and faith-based systems of belief. The Bible is replete with passages that identify wisdom as foolishness and foolishness as wisdom. Of course, the Bible doesn't attempt to define wisdom. It just claims it for itself.

    My concept of wisdom is knowing what to pursue to be happy, which differs from intelligence. An intelligent person can be unwise, as when he successfully pursues goals that do no make him happy.

    I am a very happy person, and offer that as evidence that I chose wisely. I did not choose religion, although I tried it early in life for a decade before returning to secular humanism, which values are consistent with those that have led to personal satisfaction. There is nothing that I want any more but to go on living as I do. And the principles that got me to this place were found outside of religion.

    You don't seem to understand what constitutes scientific evidence. It isn't necessary to witness an event to know that it occurred. I'm sure that one day in the recent past, you were born, even though I didn't see it.

    It is only necessary to show that the scientific theory of biological evolution is possible to assert that it could have happened. One needn't show that it did happen to call the theory the best explanation for the available evidence.

    Besides, these aren't the standards of the religious for belief, so it is meaningless when the religious attempt to hold others to them.

    What you call evidence for a god doesn't rise to that level for me. It can be better explained naturalistically. If you disagree, please give me a fact better understood as the result of a supernatural deity than some other way.

    If you reject evolution, you aren't much of a scientist, just as if you reject the divinity of Christ, you aren't much of a Christian priest or pastor. The idea that the theory of evolution is correct is not a matter of debate in the scientific community, and hasn't been for decades. It's settled science. Research today doesn't investigate whether evolution occurred, but how it occurred - what paths did it take to bring us the tree of life, and across what timeline?

    Objective evidence is what can be experienced by the aided or unaided senses, which must be interpreted to decide what it implies. For example, if I find a body on the street with two bullet holes in the back of the head, my objective evidence is the bullet holes, not its interpretation. My interpretation (or inference if you prefer) is that there was a homicide.

    I have never been given objective evidence best explained by assuming that a god must be responsible for it. If I had, I would probably be a theist, or at least much closer to being one than I am.

    I can't. I can't be more clear. I have already defined objective for you, what makes objective evidence objective, how it is used, and that conclusions can often be inferred from it. Please study what was already written rather than ask me to explain it all again.

    Besides, evidence has no place in faith-based thought anyway. so why ask for it? Just keep believing what you do on faith. You never need consider evidence.

    Incidentally, if those standards are applicable to us all, then how can you argue with somebody who claims to believe any idea by faith, including the theory of evolution, or atheism. I have reason-based argument in support of my atheism, and would not hold that position without it, but in this discussion, where at least one discussant believes that faith justifies belief, I could.

    Why couldn't I just tell you that everything I have said to you that far is true, everything that you have said and believe is false, and that my reason for saying so was faith? What would be your dissenting argument if any? That your faith is better than mine?
     
  5. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    3,151
    Ratings:
    +911
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    You have read the Bible, but apparently there is a reason you gained nothing from it.
    Right off the top of my head, I can think of several texts that has value to mankind, even today, and you missed all of them? I am not sure that those texts would make a difference to you. You probably would only see what you consider bad, or useless. However, here is just one. Leviticus 19


    I expect that would be the case for those who throw away the "glasses".
    I think I said it to you before. I am not sure.
    2 Thessalonians 2:11, 12
    11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.


    You'll have to tell me which religious belief you are speaking of, because I don't know of any. However, I understand that some people think intelligence is only limited to those who believe as they do.
    I get the feeling you are not referring to intelligent scientists who are professors in fields of science, and other professors with higher education degrees, who don't accept evolution.
    So perhaps there are religious people that think anti-intellectualism go hand in hand with people who just can't accept that people don't believe what they believe... and for sensible reasons.
    Interestingly it doesn't take genius to understand the things in the Bible, which seem to confuse some.


    This to me, is an example of a misguided view of intelligence.
    So wisdom is dependent on if one reaches a goal that makes him happy?
    There sure must be a lot of wise people that trampled on others, and lied, bribed, and stole their way to the top.

    The wisdom of God - not the worldly wisdom, which you just described, and the one the Bible identifies as foolishness - mentioned in the Bible, is described this way...
    Wisdom
    The Biblical sense of wisdom lays emphasis on sound judgment, based on knowledge and understanding; the ability to use knowledge and understanding successfully to solve problems, avoid or avert dangers, attain certain goals, or counsel others in doing so. It is the opposite of foolishness, stupidity, and madness, with which it is often contrasted. - Deuteronomy 32:6; Proverbs 11:29; Ecclesiastes 6:8.
    The basic terms signifying wisdom are the Hebrew chokh·mahʹ (verb, cha·khamʹ) and the Greek so·phiʹa, with their related forms. Also, there are the Hebrew tu·shi·yahʹ, which may be rendered “effectual working” or “practical wisdom,” and the Greek phroʹni·mos and phroʹne·sis (from phren, the “mind”), relating to “sensibleness,” “discretion,” or “practical wisdom.”
    Wisdom implies a breadth of knowledge and a depth of understanding, these giving the soundness and clarity of judgment characteristic of wisdom. The wise man ‘treasures up knowledge,’

    Look how simple that was. You just got a simple explanation of why the Bible mentioned wisdom as foolishness. That's worldly wisdom - foolishness. The things that some people think makes them intelligent, or wise.

    Which scripture calls foolishness wisdom? I have never read that in the Bible.



    You are not alone. Like you, some people feel that "happiness is the truth", and once they get there, they are good.
    Many others, view life differently, yet they are happy not because happiness was a goal, but they gained happiness because they set a goal to serve God for the rest of their life.
    Their happiness is based mostly on the joys they get from doing so.
    Their joy increases from year to year as they share that joy with others, and see others find joy. Also, they look forward with anticipation to future joys - never ending, and this keeps them joyful, even during sad times, like losing loved ones in death, losing a home or possessions by a disaster, or losing good health.

    They enjoy that happiness with a united brotherhood.
    All because of the Bible, and the valuable treasures it contains.
    Psalms 89:15 Happy are the people who know the joyful shouting. O Jehovah, they walk in the light of your face.

    I understand what evidence is. I'm just making certain you understand.


    I don't think you are a scientist, are you?
    I don't think any scientist would make such a statement, unless they are just plain biased, and egotistic, imo, and I don't think it is reasonable that a person would even think it, much less say it, imo.
    If the Divinity of Christ makes one less than Christian, evidently it is due to a mainstream view held by theological thought, rather than the first century Christians teachings, and the Bible.


    Thank you.
    So one final question on this, before I conclude with the information you requested.
    What objective evidence is there that man thinks, dreams, or sees visions - some people refer to this as hallucinations?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    3,151
    Ratings:
    +911
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    Faith - according to the Bible - is the assured expectations of what is hoped for. It is the evident demonstration of realities though not seen.

    One cannot be assured of anything, unless they have evidence, or reason for being sure. Therefore something convinces that one, that they can be sure.
    To be convinced of anything, one must have something for which there could be an element of truth. Therefore the person must examine, observe, and analyze that something, in order to determine if to believe it.

    A demonstration of something that is real, is an experiment, or experience which one can observe, to determine if something is true.
    For example...
    Wind turbines in motion demonstrate that something - a reality - is driving them. It is evidence of a reality being demonstrated. The wind is not seen. We can assert whatever we like, until the reality is realized.
    The reality of the wind has been realized.

    How people say that faith is not evidence based, is beyond me.
    Biblical faith is based on evidence, otherwise it is the faith that some have, who do not see evidence for life starting by chance, from non-living matter - among other things, but hold to the views anyhow,
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2017
    Messages:
    4,914
    Ratings:
    +4,842
    Religion:
    None
    I'm glad you find biblical text helpful. As I told you, I didn't. If you think a scripture is an example of wisdom, please quote it and explain why you consider it wise. Giving me a chapter from the Bible is not productive. I don't care to try to guess which part of it you thought was wise, or why.

    Why do you quote scripture to an unbeliever? Would you like a little something quoted to you from a scripture that has no particular value to you, such as the Qur'an?

    They don't know what intelligence is, then, do they? My dogs have intelligence. I don't know what they believe.

    A person who rejects the theory of evolution is nearly always a person with religious beliefs that contradict science's findings.

    Unless, of course, that you're an unbeliever critiquing passages in it, in which case you are told that you are not qualified to interpret or criticize scripture. You'd be amazed at the reasons I've read attempting to disqualify the opinions of unbelievers. I've saved a few dozen of them.

    I define wisdom as knowing what to pursue to find happiness. Finding happiness goes a long way to support the claim that one's choices were wise. I chose a higher education. I chose to control my blood pressure and cholesterol. I chose to work hard and save money. I chose to exercise. I chose to quit smoking. I chose a woman for my wife who is a person of character. I chose to obey the law. Now, I'm retired, happily married, healthy, surrounded by friends and beauty, grateful to be alive, and hopeful for two or more decades of the same ahead of us. Much of that is luck. The rest was due to making wise choices. That's my understanding of wisdom..

    That seems to be a definition of wisdom and intelligence combined. Avoiding and averting danger is a function of intelligence, not wisdom. Let's not spend much effort on this topic apart from providing our working definitions as we already have. Intelligence largely deals with making things turn out as you prefer. Wisdom is knowing what to prefer if happiness is your goal.

    I don't consider the Bible a good source for what constitutes wisdom or foolishness.

    That's not like me. Happiness and truth are very different things. The truth can be a guide to making choices that can then lead to happiness, but it need not be so. One must have a correct idea of what to want - what will make one happy.

    Perhaps what you meant is that happiness implies that one knows the truth. One can be happy at the hands of others with no special knowledge of the truth.

    I tried that for a decade. It didn't satisfy. Lasting happiness was found later living life differently.

    No. I'm a retired physician with an education in the sciences.

    We have to infer that from personal experience, the reports of the experiences of others, and from neurodiagnostic scans. This point is brought up in these discussions often. What I would say to you is the two situations - private mental experience and personal claims of experiencing God - have to be considerably different given that there isn't much dispute about the one, but considerable disagreement about the other.

    Once again, how apt can the analogy be if there is little debate about whether wind exist or what it is like, but very little agreement on whether gods exist, and if so, what they are like. We can't bootstrap the existence of a god an the back of the minds of others and wind not being visible to the eye.

    Ideas that are believed are either sufficiently or insufficiently justified, that is, the evidence in support of a belief justifies holding it, or not. I call these faith-based beliefs and evidence-based beliefs. They are mutually exclusive. All beliefs are one or the other, no belief being both or neither. If your belief is based on evidence, I do not call it faith.

    While others use the word faith to mean both justified and unjustified belief, as when they say that they have faith that their car will start in the morning as it has the last several hundred times it was put to the test, that is, justified belief, I don't use the word that way. When I say faith, I mean belief like religious-type belief, or belief that global warming is a hoax. Those ideas are believed by people that want to believe them, and they don't need evidence. In fact, they often hold such beliefs in the face of contradictory evidence.

    Given that, saying that biblical belief is based on evidence would be to say that biblical belief is not faith-based at all, but is evidence-based. As I've explained, no belief can be both. The belief is either adequately supported by available evidence, in which case no faith is needed to believe it, or it isn't, in which case an evidence-based thinker won't believe it, but a faith-based thinker might. I've been told that you can't please God without faith that He wants you to believe without seeing, that is, by faith.
     
  8. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    3,151
    Ratings:
    +911
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    You mean if I consider a scripture one that contains wise words, that you might be able to relate to.
    I don't think it's not practical to quote all these texts. You can read them online.
    Exodus 20:12-17 speaks for itself. It's practical for all time.
    12 “Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live a long time in the land that Jehovah your God is giving you. 13 “You must not murder. 14 “You must not commit adultery. 15 “You must not steal. 16 “You must not testify falsely when you are a witness against your fellow man. 17 “You must not desire your fellow man’s house. You must not desire your fellow man’s wife nor his slave man nor his slave girl nor his bull nor his donkey nor anything that belongs to your fellow man.”
    Leviticus 18:4-24, Leviticus 19, and Deuteronomy 23:12, 13 are also practical for all time
    Living by such morals have proven beneficial for societies living back then, thousands of years, down to this day.

    For example, some cultures have rituals to gods that require them to commit immoral acts on young pubescent girls, and unwilling widows - Wrong practices that cause much pain and trouble.
    These scriptures condemned such practices, and showed the proper guidelines to live by.

    You can quote anything you like.
    You have already been mentioning things I don't believe in, nor have any practical value to me, and I have not complained.
    I don't complain about thing that people want to quote, as long as it does not violate forum rules.
    Are you afraid of reading scripture?


    I second that.


    nearly?
    So you agree they are not always?
    Therefore your statement does not show reasonableness. Agreed?


    No, you are not the only person on earth that has read the Bible as an unbeliever critiquing passages in it. Those unbelievers reach a totally opposite conclusion to you. So I am not amazed, at all. People have reasons why they reject or accept.
    I find that some people like to make out religious people to be ignorant and unintelligent, and non-believers as brilliant intellectuals. To me, they live in an imaginary bubble, because they never want to admit they have a flawed worldview, even when they prove themselves wrong. That's how bad it is

    Brilliant people reject evolution, and brilliant people are religious. Fact.

    Some "happiness" is fleeting.
    However, I am glad that you tried to make wise decision to take care of yourself. I hope you continue to try to make more wise decisions, and also take care of your wife, and be faithful to her, and cherish her.
    It's not easy finding a wife of good character, so cherish the wife you have.
    The scriptures give practical guidance about all these things.
    Where did marriage come from?
    You know, you can only give me man's best guess, but the Bible tells us it was instituted from God, in the beginning. Is that why most persons appreciate it's a virtue that is fading from some societies?


    Yes, let us not spend time debating this. I gave you the definition, I recognize.


    There is actually much dispute about both. People cannot agree on either. So there is not much difference, in that case.
    The Dream Debate - Why Do Scientists Know so Little?
    There are those with a naturalistic view, and those with a super-naturalistic view - on conscience, thought, visions, dreams, you name it.

    I'll come back to this last bit later. My mind needs a break.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  9. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2017
    Messages:
    4,914
    Ratings:
    +4,842
    Religion:
    None
    The Ten Commandments did not inform my moral compass. I agree with it on two points, but came to those conclusions by a different route.

    No. I find it unhelpful.

    Nearly means slightly less than always, and I consider my statement reasonable.

    Thank you for that, my friend. May you also enjoy marital bliss.

    Thanks for the tip, but I look to myself for such answers. I trust my judgment and intuition. Notwithstanding a rocky and tumultuous start, in the last half of this life, after accumulating experience and ruminating on it, that judgment has served me well.

    You know that I don't turn to the Bible for advice. It is also not important to me where marriage came from, although the answer might be interesting.
     
  10. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    3,151
    Ratings:
    +911
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    You have to remember that you can't just decide on what you want a word to mean. Faith, as far as I know, doesn't mean ideas. However, I suppose, with the English language, words take on so many different meanings, the definition then varies from people to people. :(

    To me you seem to have a very misguided view of what faith is, but since people seem to have different views, I probably shouldn't say that. I heard it said before, they are four types of faith. :(

    However I explained to you the one the Bible speaks of, so yours is not mine.
    I think though some persons wish that religion not be based on rationality.
    I think some people want an excuse to label a group of people fanatics, or senseless, or some other derogatory term, because they think it somehow excuses them, and allows them to believe what ever they want.
    If that's not you, cool. :sunglasses:
     
Loading...