Weak Atheism

[St Giordano Bruno]

Being unable to explain gaps in knowledge hardly rises to the level of "well-regulated scientific test". I thought that you had some kind of experiment in mind. But you do refer to the following:


Let's be fair. This is not a test for the existence of the Christian "God". It is a test that assumes the existence of such a god and determines whether that god is inclined to grant prayers under the test circumstances. However, Christians are well aware of the fact that most of their prayers go unanswered. They spend a lot of their time explaining why one should keep the faith anyway.

That is my point this is no test, double blind or otherwise the directly verify the existence or not of God. That Harvard Prayer test and others like it are about as close as it gets.

 

[St Giordano Bruno]

Just one thing more to add, if the HPE proved that prayer works, I would believe in God, because I would feel that there much be something at last of substance which go way beyond the numerous anecdotes of people claiming to have proof of God's existence, because they just sincerely believe that their prayers have been answered. Such as a farmer believing his prayers have answered at last because the drought broke with "God" delivering good soaking rain. IMO I can't help that that could be no more than a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy because that farmer would never be bragging about all those other times he prayed and it still remained a dust bowl.

 

[Copernicus]

If prayer were any kind of test for God's existence, then it would be taken as proof that God does not exist. Prayer works just like the "cold reading" principle that mentalist fakes use to convince others of their powers. It relies on the fact that people are prone to ignoring or forgetting counterevidence when they are predisposed to belief. With prayer, people simply do not count all the times that their prayers are ignored. When something good happens, they tend to see God as favoring them because of their love and devotion. That's why people thank God when they survive natural disasters, often not thinking to curse him for allowing the natural disaster in the first place.

In my opinion, prayer is an extremely important element of most religions. Historically, people have tended to believe that supernatural, intelligent agencies controlled natural phenomena. It therefore makes sense to try to use cajoling and persuasion to get those agencies--gods, spirits, demons, etc.--to use their powers over natural circumstances to help the supplicant. Hence, religion actually gives believers the illusion of having more control over their circumstances than they really do.

 

[jarofthoughts]

Prayer can be tested scientifically, and it has been.
See for yourself: Elsevier

Conclusion: "Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications."

In other words, if you don't know someone is praying for you it has no effect whatsoever. But if you do know...well, you're actually worse off...

 

[St Giordano Bruno]

Conclusion: "Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications."

Islam could interpret that as evidence the American Christians are praying to the wrong God and are being punished for it. But I see that as no more problematical than coin flipping. Could have just fipped heads to get better tails to have complications and that could well yield a similar outcome.

 

[jarofthoughts]

Islam could interpret that as evidence the American Christians are praying to the wrong God and are being punished for it. But I see that as no more problematical than coin flipping. Could have just fipped heads to get better tails to have complications and that could well yield a similar outcome.

Well, I take it as evidence that prayer, indeed, does not work at all, but hey, the Muslim community are free to set up their own trials. This one was funded by the Templeton Foundation, just so that no-one thinks that this is some nefarious atheist scheme...

John Templeton Foundation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[St Giordano Bruno]

Perhaps the only plus side for prayer even though I think it is absolutely useless is that people can do it for free and not send any bills to the patient they are alleged to be curing. So like many things in life you get what you pay for and nothing is what you get out of prayer, other than a delusion it has vindicated one's belief in God if you recovered for other reasons such as just simple the body healing itself with the immune system kicking in without divine intervention.

 

[jarofthoughts]

Perhaps the only plus side for prayer even though I think it is absolutely useless is that people can do it for free and not send any bills to the patient they are alleged to be curing. So like many things in life you get what you pay for and nothing is what you get out of prayer, other than a delusion it has vindicated one's belief in God if you recovered for other reasons such as just simple the body healing itself with the immune system kicking in without divine intervention.

Yeah...
Various forms of "alternative" medicine has used that excuse for centuries, which, I guess, means that you do not always get what you pay for...

 

[evolved yet?]

Interesting. Why? Ghosts are based on existing human beings, who have died. We have lots of ghost stories and even pictures. Fairies and flying pigs are mythical beings, but they are physical beings that fly around, just like birds. Fairies use magic, but so do most of the other imaginary beings. I admit that all of those beings are absurd, but gods tend to have even more absurd imaginary powers. And more people have been trying to promote belief in gods than the other beings. If we made a serious effort at promulgating belief in flying pigs, I bet that we could get a large percentage of the adult population to believe in them. I am sure that CNN would run lots of stories showing both sides of the argument.

Well ghosts are land locked spirits for me that seems very unlikely. Fairies I believe are very unlikely because they are basically irreducibly complexity. Flying pigs are just too artificial and basically also irreducibly complex.

 

[Midnight Pete]

Well ghosts are land locked spirits for me that seems very unlikely. Fairies I believe are very unlikely because they are basically irreducibly complexity. Flying pigs are just too artificial and basically also irreducibly complex.

How are fairies irreducable complexity? I genuinely don't understand.

 

[St Giordano Bruno]

Couldn't teleology or the apparent complex order of the universe be simply explained away with anthropic necessity as reality only has the appearence of complex order because we could be one of the few successful worlds amongst millions of failed worlds? No observer is around to speak for them.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Perhaps the only plus side for prayer even though I think it is absolutely useless is that people can do it for free and not send any bills to the patient they are alleged to be curing.

Not always...

(emphasis mine)

Christian Science practitioners practice purely spiritual healing in that they do not manipulate the body or employ any form of thought control. Rather, they pray with and for the patient, and work lovingly with him or her to open the patient's thought to the laws of God that maintain man's health. They acknowledge God as the source of all healing, and they see themselves as messengers of the truth or as witnesses to what God has already accomplished.

[...]

Christian Science practitioners operate independently and often hold regular office hours. You can contact a practitioner to schedule an office visit, or work with them by phone, eMail or mail. Christian Science practitioners charge modest fees for their services, either by the visit, by the treatment, or by the hour. You can ascertain a practitioner's fees before engaging them. You can arrange for a single visit or treatment, or continue to request help as needed. Both the practitioner and the patient should expect healing from the treatment.​

CSPractitioners.com - What is a Christian Science Practitioner?

 

[KittensAngel]

A weak atheist is generally understood to be someone that would stand to be called an agnostic , just as easily.
Whereas a so called "strong atheist" is someone who lives in personal rational reality what the original Greek etymology declares through meaning of the word, "atheist".
Giving any chance of faith any deity could exist is not atheism.

Therefore, as many atheists will tell you, they are atheists. Strong or weak is simply a categorization that seeks to deny the truth of the matter. No God. That doesn't imply, maybe God. Could be so Deities exist. Etc... It's straight forward. No God. A-Theos.

If there was a God for it to live up to it's name, it would be required to believe in it's creation. And as a higher consciousness, it would know that. While lower consciousness, as in humans, can only imagine what God would be by definition. In which case there's a slogan that sums that up rather well. If that is God, it would be better for it's reputation if it didn't exist.

I'm an atheist.
If I thought Deity could exist, I'd be agnostic.

 

[micrurus]

Is there any weak atheist on this forum or all strong Atheist?

I reject the concepts of weak and strong atheism, you simply have atheism, the rejection of a deity, any other philosophic, moral and ethical opinions that a person has can be categorized under other terms.

 

[Yerda]

Giving any chance of faith any deity could exist is not atheism.

Where did you get that idea?

 

[St Giordano Bruno]

My slant on is, a weak atheist is only one who "believes" their is no God. A strong atheist is one who claims they "know" there is no God with the same conviction Carl Jung claimed he did not just "believe" there is a God but "knew" there is a God.

 

[Koldaramor]

Yes. I am positive (strong) atheist. History, philosophy, logic, politics, religion, knowledge about have.
But my English is not good.
I'm usually followed by reading the Forum.

 

[Requia]

I'm an atheist.
If I thought Deity could exist, I'd be agnostic.

Speaking as an ex agnostic, no. Agnosticism contains a strong statement that it is incorrect to have an opinion one way or the other, because of lack of evidence. It's more than simple uncertainty.

 

[Songbird]

Speaking as an ex agnostic, no. Agnosticism contains a strong statement that it is incorrect to have an opinion one way or the other, because of lack of evidence. It's more than simple uncertainty.

Oh man, I have no DIR then, no home to rest my weary head....just this almost empty bowl of religious gruel...

 

[DandyAndy]

I'm too lazy to read, it's late.

Is strong atheist the same as hard atheist? Is weak the same as soft?

That sounds awful...