We would be better off without religion (nope!)

[Quintessence]

Some folks among us make the claim that humans would be better off without religion. I've never put much stock in such a notion for a variety of reasons. Among those is that when it comes to human happiness, there's little doubt that being actively religious is associated with greater happiness. This trend holds true not just in the United States, but worldwide (with a few exceptions):

From: Religion's Relationship to Happiness, Civic Engagement and Health
​

These findings were posted last week and include a broader look at the relationship of religion to happiness, civic engagement, and health. There's definitely more to check out in the study if you'd like some reading material. An important caveat for these data, though (from the article):

"The exact nature of the connections between religious participation, happiness, civic engagement and health remains unclear and needs further study. While the data presented in this report indicate that there are links between religious activity and certain measures of well-being in many countries, the numbers do not prove that going to religious services is directly responsible for improving people’s lives. Rather, it could be that certain kinds of people tend to be active in multiple types of activities (secular as well as religious), many of which may provide physical or psychological benefits."​

Thoughts?

 

[Woberts]

My thoughts? We would be better off without religion.
The irreligious can be just as happy as the religious, as church services don't have a monopoly on happiness. While being happy can have benefits, those benefits are far outweighed by the negatives of religion resisting the advancements of civil rights on a regular basis, attempting to enforce their belief to the expense of all others, and the watering down of science in schools to keep their future converts from noticing the flaws in their belief system.

 

[HonestJoe]

Some folks among us make the claim that humans would be better off without religion. I've never put much stock in such a notion for a variety of reasons. Among those is that when it comes to human happiness, there's little doubt that being actively religious is associated with greater happiness.

I have a little doubt. All we know from these figures is that more religious people say they’re happy than non-religious people. That doesn’t mean they’re actually happier, only that they either believe they’re happier or are more likely to say they’re happy even if they aren’t. Maybe they’re even defining happiness differently.

And isn’t it also possible that it is the existence of religion that makes non-religious people less happy? That if we didn’t have religion, the previously religious people would remain just as happy but the previously non-religious ones would get happier? After all, so much of traditional religion feels like it’s based on making us feel bad for all the things we enjoy doing.

Anyway, is (perceived) happiness the be-all and end-all of life? Would you rather someone was wearily sorting through yet another donation to the children’s hospital or gleefully splashing around in a bath of his enemies dismembered corpses?

 

[Vinayaka]

I question as to how one measures happiness. If it's based on questionaires, then I'd be suspicious. Saying you're happy, and being happy can be very different. Perceived happiness has a pride factor to it that comes through hard and clear with some folks 'of religion'.

 

[stvdv]

From: Religion's Relationship to Happiness, Civic Engagement and Health

If I understand this correctly then "active" religious people are more happy than "not active" religious people
It does not say anything about "non-religious" people. Only about "active religious people"

Difficult to answer your question "would we be better off without religion?"
1) Most religions teach "Love thy neighbour" kind of stuff. You don't need a religion to do that I think.
2) Maybe Atheists are 100% happy. So if there was no religion, religious people were atheists and there would be less unhappy people
3) Maybe if there was no religion then these religious people become terribly unhappy, so if the goal is happy people then better have religions
4) If the goal is to transcend religion then maybe without religion is better. On the other hand the challenge to choose is always good

I think it's impossible to answer your question (we would be better off without religion). There are too many variables.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Some folks among us make the claim that humans would be better off without religion. I've never put much stock in such a notion for a variety of reasons. Among those is that when it comes to human happiness, there's little doubt that being actively religious is associated with greater happiness.

I have very strong doubt about this.

To the extent that this is true, I think it's worthwhile to consider how much of the effect is due to things that don't necessarily have to come from a religion.

For instance, hungry people will be happier and better off if they have access to a food bank. Being part of a religious community will often put a person in contact with this sort of resource. And regular social interaction is good, too, but does it really matter if it's through a weekly church service or through, say, a weekly bridge club?

And keep in mind that selection bias often makes studies into the benefit of religion wonky. There's a study I've seen cited quite often that found that weekly church attendance correlated with better health outcomes... however, when you look at the details of the study, you see that the group not attending church weekly included people who wanted to attend, but were too sick or infirm to do it.

 

[Quintessence]

My thoughts? We would be better off without religion.
The irreligious can be just as happy as the religious, as church services don't have a monopoly on happiness. While being happy can have benefits, those benefits are far outweighed by the negatives of religion resisting the advancements of civil rights on a regular basis, attempting to enforce their belief to the expense of all others, and the watering down of science in schools to keep their future converts from noticing the flaws in their belief system.

It sounds like you are confusing religion with a subset thereof. Let's just forget the role religion played in inspiring Martin Luther King Jr. and other inconvenient stuff like that, right?

I question as to how one measures happiness. If it's based on questionaires, then I'd be suspicious. Saying you're happy, and being happy can be very different. Perceived happiness has a pride factor to it that comes through hard and clear with some folks 'of religion'.

When a pattern holds internationally across very different cultures with different norms, color me skeptical in thinking this is the case. You do bring up a point, though, that self-assessed information has its limits.

If I understand this correctly then "active" religious people are more happy than "not active" religious people
It does not say anything about "non-religious" people.

It does. That's what their "unaffiliated" category means. The categories were: active, inactive, unaffiliated. Read the article if you want more details on their methodology.

I think it's impossible to answer your question (we would be better off without religion). There are too many variables.

I agree that further study into matters like this is going to be problematic because of the complexity of the topic. That said, to me the question really isn't about whether or not humans would be better off with or without religion. I accept the fact that religion is essential to the human condition, and short of killing us all, there's no getting rid of it. I'm more interested in what specific behaviors are contributing to the patterns than whether or not we put them under the construct-label of religion.

 

[Quintessence]

I have very strong doubt about this.

I wouldn't - the data are right there. Unless you have an objection to the methodology itself, the data are what they are and the association between self-reported happiness and active religiosity holds across multiple countries. Don't forget to mind this bit from the article:

"The exact nature of the connections between religious participation, happiness, civic engagement and health remains unclear and needs further study. While the data presented in this report indicate that there are links between religious activity and certain measures of well-being in many countries, the numbers do not prove that going to religious services is directly responsible for improving people’s lives. Rather, it could be that certain kinds of people tend to be active in multiple types of activities (secular as well as religious), many of which may provide physical or psychological benefits."​

​

That the association or correlation is matter of fact does not mean the nature of the connections is. I chose to include this quote from the article specifically to remind people of that challenge.

 

[Revoltingest]

Even if the happiness metric of those surveyed were cromulent, it's
a small part of a larger picture. Who wasn't surveyed....oppressed
people in theocracies like Pakistan or Saudi Arabia? People who
are dead or incommunicado as a direct result of religious intolerance?
They weren't in the survey presented.

 

[ajay0]

Religions are actually conceptual frameworks to attain a non-conceptual state of being as in love or awareness.

The qualify of an aware human being is that he is nonreactive, positive and converts even hell into heaven around him, while an unconscious human being who does not understand his true nature, can convert even an heavenly place into hell.

Fire can be used to cook food or for arson, and a knife can be used to cut vegetables or murder a human being.

Religious fanatics and incorrigible fundamentalists who refuse to change, are actually unconscious people who are converting the tool of religion into a negative state of affairs, bringing conflict, chaos and disharmony.

The issue is that most people have not figured what religion is all about, and have reduced it to a mere belief system or ideology for their egos to identify with. If you do not know who you are , the ego becomes insecure, so you try to cover up the stink of self-ignorance with ego labels of religion, nationality, gender, sexual orientation, political orientation, and so on.

This ignorance of the true purpose of religion, which is self-knowledge, is what is causing all this stink of religious conflict, superstitious practices and terrorism.

 

[Quintessence]

Even if the happiness metric of those surveyed were
cromulent, it's a small part of a larger picture.
Who wasn't surveyed....oppressed people in theocracies
like Pakistan or Saudi Arabia? People who are dead as
a direct result of religious intolerance?

We'd have to look at the methodology regarding which countries were included and why.

As for surveying dead people... that's kind of a weak objection. Sorry. As an FYI, this research group does global assessments of religious intolerance on a regular basis. Their most recent assessment of that I could find is here - Global Uptick in Government Restrictions on Religion in 2016

 

[Vinayaka]

I think that perhaps a better measure of happiness, are actions that we can measure, like divorce rates, suicide rates, refugee (emigration) rates, and a few more. There is an old story how a beggar with peace of mind gets a better sleep on a bed of rocks than a millionaire with a swirling mind gets on a feather bed. Just so tough to judge, this happiness thing. There are variations on that too, like quiet contentment being different from outward joy.

Here's a country divorce rate chart ... Divorce Rate by Country: The World’s 10 Most and Least Divorced Nations - Unified Lawyers Sydney

 

[Kenny]

Some folks among us make the claim that humans would be better off without religion. I've never put much stock in such a notion for a variety of reasons. Among those is that when it comes to human happiness, there's little doubt that being actively religious is associated with greater happiness. This trend holds true not just in the United States, but worldwide (with a few exceptions):

From: Religion's Relationship to Happiness, Civic Engagement and Health
​

These findings were posted last week and include a broader look at the relationship of religion to happiness, civic engagement, and health. There's definitely more to check out in the study if you'd like some reading material. An important caveat for these data, though (from the article):

"The exact nature of the connections between religious participation, happiness, civic engagement and health remains unclear and needs further study. While the data presented in this report indicate that there are links between religious activity and certain measures of well-being in many countries, the numbers do not prove that going to religious services is directly responsible for improving people’s lives. Rather, it could be that certain kinds of people tend to be active in multiple types of activities (secular as well as religious), many of which may provide physical or psychological benefits."​

Thoughts?

Apparently it also helps in education:

1. Educational Achievement
Increased religious attendance is correlated with higher grades.3) In one study, students who attended religious activities weekly or more frequently were found to have a GPA 14.4 percent higher than students who never attended.4) Students who frequently attended religious services scored 2.32 points higher on tests in math and reading than their less religiously-involved peers.5)

More than 75 percent of students who become more religious during their college years achieved above-average college grades.6) Religiously involved students work harder in school than non-religious students.7)


Effects of Religious Practice on Education [Marripedia]

 

[Revoltingest]

As for surveying dead people... that's kind of a weak objection.

I point out a potentially large statistical bias.
People who could not respond because religion caused either their
death or their being censored would comprise a group who'd counter the
happiness of respondents. And this group would be significant in size.
Moreover, their unhappiness might be of greater magnitude than the
happiness of those surveyed.

 

[Jumi]

I see some irreligious people are unhappy about this research. Jokes aside, religious participation may increase happiness of the participants but not necessarily of others. Say in the case of religion being cause of persecution.

 

[Jumi]

Moreover, their unhappiness might be of greater magnitude than the
happiness of those surveyed.

I see you already adressed the same thing as I was going for, but more eloquently...

 

[Vinayaka]

Of course the other problem with this type of survey and conclusion is the massive overgeneralisation of the tern 'religion' itself. Some religions might well make a person quite unhappy, while others will have the opposite effect. I think they would avoid that merely because it'll set up the strange sort of competition of 'my religion is better than your religion'.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think that perhaps a better measure of happiness, are actions that we can measure, like divorce rates, suicide rates, refugee (emigration) rates, and a few more. There is an old story how a beggar with peace of mind gets a better sleep on a bed of rocks than a millionaire with a swirling mind gets on a feather bed. Just so tough to judge, this happiness thing. There are variations on that too, like quiet contentment being different from outward joy.

Here's a country divorce rate chart ... Divorce Rate by Country: The World’s 10 Most and Least Divorced Nations - Unified Lawyers Sydney

A higher divorce rate wouldn't correlate with happiness IMO.
People I know who've gotten divorced, even repeatedly,
eventually end up happier than they were in a failing marriage.
So countries where divorce is difficult might be imposing
greater unhappiness.

 

[Vinayaka]

A higher divorce rate wouldn't correlate with happiness IMO.
People I know who've gotten divorced, even repeatedly,
eventually end up happier than in a failed marriage.
So countries where divorce is difficult might be imposing
unhappiness.

I agree. Poor example. Some people are far happier being divorced. I suspect Boss would be.

 

[Revoltingest]

Of course the other problem with this type of survey and conclusion is the massive overgeneralisation of the tern 'religion' itself. Some religions might well make a person quite unhappy, while others will have the opposite effect. I think they would avoid that merely because it'll set up the strange sort of competition of my religion is better than your religion'.

Adding to your point....
There's a problem when religion combines with government, in
which case the religion might appear to make people unhappy, when
it's actually governmental imposition of it which causes woe or ennui.

Note:
I try to work the word, "ennui", into a post at least once per year.
This seemed a cromulent occasion.