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we never asked jesus to die for us

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by hail-satan-666, May 16, 2005.

  1. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    That's not what I'm implying or talking about. I'm trying to understand why there had to be a "sacrifice" at all.
     
  2. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    We have been given several explanaions. But it seems that you want to go even deeper. Either God is not ready to give it, or we are not ready to receive it.

    God's method of revelation and the depth of it changes as we "evolve" as a society. To the ancient Hebrews, he spoke in incredibly vague terms about the creation. We fault for communicating on "their level", and demand that he either be literal or just forget it!

    How petulant we are, that we feel it appropriate to question God's timing and judgment. Not that you are doing that here, but the feeling is pervasive in our society: People feel it's THEIR RIGHT to know "why?".
     
  3. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    I don't see it as a right to know.... I need to know. I can't just blindly believe something because someone tells me to.
     
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  4. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    I seemed to have jumped into the middle of a conversation, so I moved this up. All through out the bible, God provided proof and explanations for those who asked, he is no different now.

    It appears to me that pretty much every person who has a story, sinned and 'suffered' for them. This illustrates the law of Karma. You reap what you sow. God does not punish. This was just the only way people of their time could explain the fact that sometimes your actions don't come back to you till much later.

    When Jesus said that 'it was finished', this was saying that he had balanced the karma started ADAM. Jesus was a walking example of the only way we can balance all of our karma, and that is with forgiveness and love.

    I believe Jesus was the spirit of Adam re-incarnate.
    Romans 5:16,17
    "The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man. . ."

    If we reap what we sow, and it comes back multiplied (when you plant a tiny little seed it grows into something big). Adam commited the sin, and Jesus fulfilled the debt, and showed us all how to balance our debts, if we don't balance debt, the seed continues to grow from generation to generation, until the debt is finally balanced.
     
  5. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    because his death was supposed to be symbolic of the Korbon Pesach (the passover sacrafice) since the crucifiction was to have taken place at this time of the year...that's sorta where the christian idea comes from of Jesus as a sacrifice...in fact i imagine the whole concept of Jesus as a "sacrafice" goes back to trying to build the early church as the new and improved Israel

    V'im'ru Amein! Let us say, Amen!
     
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  6. Lloyd

    Lloyd Member

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    I don't really want to do shameless self promotion but....I feel like I gave a fairly satisfying explanation on page one. In case you don't feel like flipping back to read it summarizes as follows.

    Christ's life as a whole was a sacrifice so that we could be taught the good news, even those parts of the good news that were unsettling to powers of the day. The crucifixion was only the price he ended up paying for God sending him to do such a risky, but necessary job. So in this light, a sacrifice was needed so that we could receive the word of God, not necessarily crucifixion, but some manner of suffering inevitable in the delivery of so controversial a message.
     
  7. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Ah, but aren't we all God's children ? why did he have to 'pick on' Jesus ?:)
     
  8. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    I suggest you do this every day.

    How much about electricity do you REALLY know? Yet you show no hesitation in flipping a light switch.

    Do you REALLY know how your brakes work? Then why are you BLINDLY stepping on the pedal?

    For many people "needing to know" is merely an excuse. It saves them from dealing with the more germane issues. I am not implying that this applies to you... but for many people, it's a true statement.
     
  9. Dayv

    Dayv Member

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    RRRRRRRR! This thread is driving me NUTS! Maize, I completely understand your frustration! It makes no sense at all that by one man dying we can all be absolved of our 'sins.' Why does god need a sacrafice?! That's barbaric! How is sending your only son to get slaughtered love?! I'd be more impressed by god if he'd have saved Jesus. What kind of 'father' is he?! You christians are being so circuitous with your explination because you don't have one. It makes no sense! A god demanding a sacrafice for some unexplained reason and than saying he is all-forgiving doesn't add up, and I'd refuse to believe it, too, without some serious explaining.
     
  10. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    I don't know if you guys are ignoring me, but please read my previous post. God does not punish us, and Jesus did not wash away our sins. He washed away the sins of his fathers. And he taught us how to wash away our sins. With forgiveness, and love.

    When Jesus said that 'it was finished', this was saying that he had balanced the karma started with ADAM. Jesus was a walking example of the only way we can balance our own karma, and that is with forgiveness and love.
    Romans 5:16,17
    "The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man. . ."
     
  11. Dayv

    Dayv Member

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    sorry EnhancedSpirit, just doesn't do it for me either. I read your entry already, and it still doesn't work for me. Why should one person be accountable for someone elses sins? We will each learn from our own mistakes,in this life or another, that is how we find wisdom. "balancing karma" just doesn't work for me.
     
  12. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Sometimes we even learn how our mistakes actually affect OTHERS. Therin lies true responsibility.
     
  13. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    In order to fully understand, you must accept reincarnation. Jesus did not pay for the sins of someone else. Jesus was the spirit of Adam, and fulfilled his own karmic debt. As well as we must do for ourselves. Jesus did not wash away our sins. We have to do that.
     
  14. Dayv

    Dayv Member

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    I do accept reincarnation, I'm a druid! Like I said, in this life or another. But I don't believe so much in Karma, or that Jesus was giving us an example of what to do (or that he ever even existed). Whether we like it or not, we will make amends, and from our struggles learn a greater wisdom
     
  15. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Oh dear, I'm going to have to read up on druidry!:)
     
  16. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    This is exactly what Jesus said. And like my mom always said, you can do it the easy way or the hard way. And believe you, me, my way ALWAYS ended up being the HARD way. I realized her way would have been much easier. Jesus taught us the most direct way to make amends and obtain that greater wisdom you speak of, and to learn how to turn the struggles into valuable lessons.
     
  17. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    Perhaps, but those things aren't supposedly threatening to throw me into a lake of fire if I don't believe them. I see the light coming on, I see the brakes stopping the car.... I've yet to see a god.
     
  18. Lloyd

    Lloyd Member

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    My thoughts as well.

    I've already explained it twice. If the explanation is so unsatisfactory I would like to be told what is so unsatisfactory. I'm more than willing to explain everything in more detail.
     
  19. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Aren't they? Go ahead and refuse to use your brakes. Are you now going to blame the brakes for your accident? I can hear the excuses now:

    :tsk: Why are those car manufacturers SO NARROW MINDED that you HAVE to BELIEVE in THEIR brakes in order to stop?

    :tsk: The manufactuer has CONDEMNED EVERYONE who won't use their brakes to die in a fiery crash!!!

    :tsk: I just can't BELIEVE in a manufacturer that DEMANDS that I use THEIR brakes to avoid an accident.
     
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  20. Dayv

    Dayv Member

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    but you have a choice in what brakes or appliances you might use, and to those who dare, not to use them at all. By the bible's word, you don't really have that choice. I think the whole brake example is a little lame. As for following Jesus, I'm really not much of a follower, and I have always believed that all life is equal, especially within a species, so when he goes around saying he's the son of god, I feel a bit of scorn, although I don't think he ever really existed to begin with.
     
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