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we never asked jesus to die for us

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by hail-satan-666, May 16, 2005.

  1. hail-satan-666

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    Why does does jesus expect you to worship him because he died for all our sins?We didn't ask him to do that he did it so we shouldn't have to worship him.He chose to die for our sins not us so we don't owe him anything we didn't ask him to do that.Ok ya he did it for us ok thanks jesus your a good guy but don't expect me to follow you.
     
  2. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    Jesus never wanted us to worship him. Unfortunately most Christians are commiting idolatry and validating it with misconceptions of what the bible says.

    He chose to die to show us that it is better to turn the other cheek, than to fight to the death. He taught us to love our enemies as much as we love our allies. He showed us that someone can go through lifes trials and tribulations without resorting to violence and hatred.

    Unfortunately most Christians do not walk the path the Christ is the light for. They have cut their own path, and call it Jesus.
     
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  3. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Let no good deed go unpunished.
     
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  4. Ordination of Aaron

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    Read Ecclesisastes, then tell me we didn't ask for his sacrifice.
     
  5. kreeden

    kreeden Virus of the Mind

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    Ecclesisastes ? Like in , nothing has any meaning ? It is better to die at birth then to live to an old age ? ... Ok .

    HS-666 , the simple answer to your question , I believe , is that Jesus didn't ask you to worship him . { free will comes into the picture as I see it } . He fullfilled a covenant . But to understand it , you have to read it , unbaisly study it actually . And by that , I mean without some one telling you what it all means . No , there is no short cut to understanding any religion . Just read the religious debates on this forum . :)
     
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  6. Ordination of Aaron

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    That tone in the book is to be attributed to the author's reaction to what he sees as the promises of god not being fulfilled. During that time many Jews felt the same. In this hopelessness, they are asking for something, for a the fulfillment of what they've been promised, and Christ was that.
     
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  7. Ziroc

    Ziroc Member

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    Jesus never died for our sins. Why would Jesus die for our sins if God is truly Merciful? Can't God just forgive our mistakes instead of asking someone to pay for our sins? Why can't God just forgive instead of asking for the penalty of blood? Doesn't that indicate that God is full of vengeance? God is not a king nor a judge, but He is what in the holy Quran says, "The Master of The Day of Judgment". Every human being will be responsible for what they have done when they were alive. To punish someone has no other intention than to reform the sinner, thus if the sinner has repented and reformed him/her-self, there is no need to punish the sinner. Punishment to this reformed person will only show vengeance and injusticeness. The God that we worship is the God with full of love and mercy.
     
  8. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    You remind me of the child who has upset his/her parent, looks up all disgruntled and says "I never asked to be born". But, whatever you think, it's up to you what you believe in, and if you think Jesus expects you to worship him - well, you're the only one who can decide whether you want to.:)
     
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  9. Lloyd

    Lloyd Member

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    My perspective on this, which is more or less the Baha'i perspective, is that we were redeemed by Christ through the sacrifices made throughout his life. The crucifixion was just the price he ended up paying for a life of uncompromised service and teaching. He was sent to give us the truth, no matter how unpopular it may have been. As a result many people sought his death. So from this perspective, Christ died so that we may have the good news and through the good news we may have eternal life. His death was the price he paid for delivering the greatest gift that could be given. Surely, this is something to be grateful for.
     
  10. BUDDY

    BUDDY User of Aspercreme

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    First of all, Jesus doesn't want us to worship Him, he wants us to worship God the Father, and remember Jesus sacrifice by partaking of it in communion. Secondly, Jesus sacrificed himself for our sins because the only thing that can make atonement between mans disobedience and God, is a blood sacrifice. Jesus sacrificed His perfect blood once and for all, so that no other sacrifice would ever be needed. The need for blood has to do with the nature of man, not the nature of God. God created us in a way that in order to cleanse ourselve of our imperfection, an offering had to be made to God as a sign that we recognize our shortcomings and want His forgiveness. Of course, you can choose to believe or not believe however you want. I would say that you sound pretty angry as someone that doesn't believe, so maybe you should try something new. Maybe it would help to lighten you up a bit.:)
     
  11. fromthe heart

    fromthe heart Well-Known Member

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    Ditto!!!
     
  12. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    I think the better question is, why did God have to have his own son killed for our sins?
     
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  13. kreeden

    kreeden Virus of the Mind

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    Ok . But are you sure that he wasn't just having a really bad day ? ;) { I am joking } It is just that it wouldn't be my first choice to send a person trying to understand the relationship between sin and Jesus' death . Seems a little advanced to me .
     
  14. Melody

    Melody Well-Known Member

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    HS,
    It is entirely within your perogative not to believe...or refuse to accept the gift that was offered.
     
  15. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Actually, that is an excellent question, Maize.
    One site 'thestillsmallvoice.com churns out the usual:-
    The Bible tells us that "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners" (1 Timothy 1:15). God is a just God who must punish sin. The Bible says that "the wages of sin is death"; and that "all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 6:23; 3:23). In order to save us sinners and make us acceptable in God's sight, it was necessary for God the Son to become a man and live a sinless and holy life in our place, and then to suffer upon the cross the just punishment for our sins and the sins of the whole world (cf. Romans 3:24-26; 5:6-10; Ephesians 1:6-7). This Jesus Christ has done for us! Because of His innocent sufferings and death in our stead, God is gracious and merciful to us sinners. Through faith in Jesus and His cross, we have forgiveness for our sins and everlasting life in heaven instead of spiritual death and the everlasting fires of hell which we deserve. When Jesus was about to die on the cross, He said, "It is finished" (John 19:30). Jesus had accomplished our redemption; He had paid in full the punishment for your sins and my sins! It was necessary for Jesus to die upon the cross to save you. He died for our sins and rose again. Hallelujah!,
    which I think we probably do not need to have reaffirmed, whilst the following site:-
    http://www.bible.org/qa.asp?topic_id=67&qa_id=155 gives the Biblical view as well as some interpretive theory, but it doesn't go towards answering the question for a non-Christian.
    The only way I can see it is that God was showing how much he cared about his children (us, in effect) by allowing his son (Who was a perfect son in human shape - which is a contradiction in terms anyway)to die for our sake. In other words, showing us that he would do anything for his children. Which is pretty much how I think we parents feel for our children.:)
     
  16. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    I understand the apologetic claims, but it still doesn't explain (to me anyway) why a loving God required a blood sacrifice of his only son.
     
  17. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Maize,

    I am not sure that anyone could ever answer that... it is truly beyond our ken. However, I am glad that God could understand that and was willing to let his son suffer.

    I think a lot of it has to do with God wanting to be guilty of NOT DOING what he has asked of others. I think you can see that same attitude in many of Jesus teachings such as the washing of the Disciple's feet. Such as telling his disciples that leaders should be servants.
     
  18. Ordination of Aaron

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    Is that not a sign of love? That is, the sacrifice of his child for us? It doesn't disprove the loving nature of god, if that is what you're trying to imply.
     
  19. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    But if we're supposed to blindly believe and take this story as literal, shouldn't we be given an explanation that we could understand. We're just supposed to believe all this stuff, but none of it makes any sense!
     
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  20. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    I seemed to have jumped into the middle of a conversation, so I moved this up. All through out the bible, God provided proof for those who asked, he is no different now.

    It appears to me that pretty much every person who has a story, sinned and 'suffered' for them. This illustrates the law of Karma. You reap what you sow. God does not punish. This was just the only way people of their time could explain the fact that sometimes your actions don't come back to you till much later.

    When Jesus said that 'it was finished', this was saying that he had balanced the karma started ADAM. Jesus was a walking example of the only way we can balance all of our karma, and that is with forgiveness and love.

    I believe Jesus was the spirit of Adam re-incarnate.
    Romans 5:16,17
    "The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man. . ."

    If we reap what we sow, and it comes back multiplied (when you plant a tiny little seed it grows into something big). Adam commited the sin, and Jesus fulfilled the debt, and showed us all how to balance our debts, if we don't balance debt, the seed continues to grow from generation to generation, until the debt is finally balanced.
     
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