We had a pre-earth life we don't have memory of?

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RE: DOPS

I see that you, again, just posted a link. It seems you do not understand the article well enough to excerpt anything that supports your argument.

Here are a few excerpts I thought were interesting...
DOPS is one of very few University-based research units in the world that investigates similar paranormal phenomena.
Do you wonder why this is so? Universities are at the forefront of research in amny different areas. Does it occur to you that universities don't do research in psi because psi has been debunked tso many times already?

Although members of DOPS staff have at one time or another investigated examples of many types of paranormal phenomena mentioned above (and some others not mentioned), it seemed wise to focus our efforts and resources. Therefore, in recent years the primary researchers have concentrated almost exclusively on young children who claim to remember previous lives and on near-death experiences.
Did they decide to concentrate "almost exclusively on young children who claim to remember previous lives and on near-death experiences" because their previous research avenues produced no replicable results?

There are many articles that support my argument. I've led you to the door to all the research. If you are interested, walk through that door and read the studies.

Eight-year-olds can post links. They can do it without ever having to read, let alone understand, the content of the linked sites. Then they can proudly and boldly proclaim, "I've led you to the door ...If you are interested, walk through that door".

 

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Hi @JM123 and @Scott C.

I simply wanted to give you an example of WHY the early Judeo-Christian doctrines with their knowledge of pre-existence were more rational and coherent and superior (IMO) to those of the many later Christian Movements.

Early Christian traditions, doctrines, and practices are vast, interrelated, coherent, and provide insight and relevance to authentic religion

We have, so far, simply discussed a very small portion of the vast early Jewish and Christian literature having to do with the pre-creation time period. The Genre in early Judeo-Christian literature is actually quite large and consequential. Part of the reason the literature is not so widely known in the various modern Jewish religions is due to a prohibition in Rabbinic Judaism (the predominant type) from inquiry into and a study of pre-creation. However, the philosophical and doctrinal consequences of the abandonment of such early doctrines is important since it left the later iterations and versions of Christian movements in a state of relative ignorance on important subjects.

I mentioned, as an example the problem of the origin of Evil and the continued allowance of suffering by an omnipotent God within the Christian context have been debated for almost 2 millennia. Many of these philosophical questions are clarified by a return to early historical religious texts that describe what was happening in the pre-creation periods. For example :


In response to an inquiry as to the origin of Satan, I saw a comment from a Christian who was explaining to an investigator of Christianity, the origin of Satan as a source of evil in God’s creation. The christian commented :

“...there's nothing, scripturally speaking, that addresses the question of the origin of evil (or Satan, if you prefer). The only hint is in Genesis 3 where the serpent (in later tradition -- again without scriptural support -- identified as the devil) appears quite suddenly as part of an apparently very good creation. Nary a word of comment on the origins of this creature.... “

That’s it, in toto.

Such statements reveal a lack of a framework for understanding the basic issues surrounding what is going on with all of this “good” and “evil” that none of us avoid inside of creation; and demonstrate the value of turning to the earliest Christian teachings and their writings on such issues.

There is a great deal of early literature regarding what the early christians themselves believed regarding the Origin and motives of Lucifer (his “name” before he became “satan” or the “devil”...)
I think it is an important historical context to keep in mind that Lucifer’s “fall” did not happen suddenly nor in a contextual vacuum. That is, the “good” Archangel Lucifer did didn't simply wake up in a bad mood and decide to be “evil” one morning. But instead, Lucifers fall was more logical and it occurred in the context of several frustrating controversies, (some more important than others).

Though LDS readers will be aware of other controversies, the most famous controversy in the ancient texts occurred during the honoring of Adam which itself takes place in the greater context of God the Fathers Plan.

The “Fall” of Lucifer from angel in power to an enemy of God and the rest of mankind.

In this early Judeo-Christian model :

1) The spirits of angels, mankind and God existed prior to mortality

2) God the Father’s plan entailed moral advancement of the spirits of men

3) The Honoring of Adam was logical in view of his role in God’s plan for mankind

4) Lucifer’s “rebellion” was more than a refusal to “honor Adam”.

5) Lucifer’s “punishment” relates to his rebellion against the plan AND God himself

6) Lucifer’s current “dominion” plays a “role” in God’s ultimate plan


Without considering conditions PRIOR to Lucifer’s rebellion, then the rebellion cannot be understood as the ancient Christians (who wrote the texts) understood it. Without considering the nature of the rebellion, then Lucifer’s punishment and his current dominion cannot be understood as the ancient Christians understood and taught such doctrines



A) GOD THE FATHER’S PLAN FOR MAN, (WHICH LUCIFER ULTIMATELY REBELS AGAINST)

Long before the creation of this world, God was in the midst of spirits. Early textual testimonies describe innumerable spirits existing in “heaven” before creation and, they describe what God intended to do with these innumerable spirits.

Regarding his vision of pre-creation heaven, Enoch records : "No one could come near unto him [God the Father] from among those that surrounded the tens of millions (that stood) before him". (1 En 14:23). Enoch continues : Quote: "I saw a hundred thousand times a hundred thousand, ten million times ten million, an innumerable and uncountable (multitude) who stand before the glory of the Lord of the Spirits". (1 Enoch 40:1-2)"

“At the time that the Holy One, be blessed, was about to create the world, he decided to fashion all the souls which would in due course be dealt out to the children of men, .... Scrutinizing each, he saw that among them some would fall into evil ways in the world. Each one in it’s due time the Holy One, be blessed, bade come to him, and then said: “Go now, descend into this that this place, into this and this body.” (The Zohar - The Destiny of the Soul) God was in the midst of spirits of all the spirits who ever lived or will live on this earth according to such early texts.



B) BECAUSE GOD WAS INTELLIGENT AND POSSESSED POWER AND CHARITY, HE DEVISED A PLAN SO AS TO ALLOW OTHER SPIRITS TO ADVANCE

The ancient Jewish doctrine that God had instituted a divine plan is interwoven into multiple texts : "Before all things came to be, he [God] has ordered all their designs" (Dead Sea Scrolls 4Q255-264)
Quote:“....I (the Father), in the midst of the light (glory), moved around in the invisible things, like one of them, as the sun moves around from east to west and from west to east. But the sun has rest; yet I did not find rest, because everything was not yet created. And I thought up the idea of establishing a foundation, to create a visible creation." (2nd Enoch 24:4)

The Prophet Enoch describes the earliest stages of this plan before it was known among the heavenly host : "for not even to my angels have I explained my secrets, nor related to them their origin, nor my endless and inconceivable creation which I conceived." (2nd Enoch 24:3) In these descriptions of his Plan, God the Father seems to take great care in both the planning of and in ensuring the deep involvement of the Heavenly Hosts (for whose benefit the plan existed).

Though these texts tell us that all the spirits of men existed before the creation of the earth, the spirits were in no way equals (just as we are not equal now). Among them were the more intelligent and gifted; i.e. those who were more full of grace and truth than others. In addition to Lucifer, God the Father and Adam, all other key players are all present in this pre-mortal realm.

In Enoch’s vision, he also see’s the pre-mortal Jesus with the Father. Upon seeing the two together, Enoch asks who this individual (Jesus) is and what role he has in the Father's Plan :
Quote:"At that place, I saw the Beginning of days [i.e. the Father] And his head was white like wool, and there was with him another individual, whose face was like that of a human being. His countenance was full of grace like that of one among the holy angels. And I asked the one – from among the angels –who was going with me,..."Who is this and from where could he be, and for what reason does he go with him who precedes time?" And he answered me and said to me, "This is the Son of Man, to whom belongs righteousness, and with whom righteousness dwells...the Lord of the spirits has chosen him, and he is destined to be victorious before the Lord of the spirits in eternal uprightness...." (1 Enoch 46:1-4)

It is in this context that the Apostolic Father Ignatius taught that among those spirits was "Jesus...who before the ages was with the father..” (Ignatius :6:1). The ancient records show the Father and Jesus, from early on, possessed a great similarity and unity. Jesus was given greater authority and administrated much of the Father’s plan from early on (God’s "right hand" was one of the Pre-Creation Jesus’ appellations). Diogenes relates this ancient doctrine :

"And when he revealed it (his plan) through his beloved Child and made known the things prepared from the beginning, he gave us to share in his benefits and to see and understand things which none of [us] ever would have expected.. So then, having already planned everything in his mind together with his child... (Diog 301:8-11)

C) DESPITE CONCERNS, THE PLAN WAS GENERALLY, RECEIVED JOYOUSLY

Ancient pre-creation histories describe that the Father’s plan, revealed to these spirits before the foundations of the earth were laid was generally joyously received. God’s question to Job was not merely rhetorical, but was a contextual reminder to Job of an actual occurrence.

"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (Job 38:4-7)

The advancement entailed by God's plan was something the spirits wanted : Enoch says that he saw : "...the fountain of righteousness,...surrounded completely by numerous fountains of wisdom. All the thirsty ones drink (of the water) and become filled with wisdom. (Then) their dwelling places become with the holy, righteous, and elect ones.‘

The underlying concept is that there were other spirits who wanted to drink from that same wisdom and take their place with others who were “holy, righteous and elect”.

Jewish Zohar relates mortality to a moral education received by coming to mortality : “...why do they [the spirits of mankind] descend to this world only to be taken thence [back to heaven] at some future time? “This may be explained by way of a simile: A king has a son whom he sends to a village to be educated until he shall have been initiated into the ways of the palace. When the king is informed that his son is now come to maturity, the king, out of his love, sends the matron his mother to bring him back into the palace, and there the king rejoices with him every day..... “

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D) GOD’S PLAN CONTINUED TO PROGRESS

God’s plan moved forward and preparations were made over a great deal of time including a physical creation in preparation for mortality.

Though multiple creation accounts exist, the earlier Christian accounts make it clear both that God created the Planets and Stars (often translated “orbs” or “circles”) out of “lessor”, or more chaotic material, and, importantly, he commissioned the Pre-creation Jesus (Often called “the word” or his “right hand”) to administrate over this material creation of an earth which will then be populated with embodied spirits for their education and testing.

Thus the early Synagogal prayer reflects this doctrine : “We give thanks to you, O God and Father of Jesus our Savior...O Master Almighty, the God of the universe, you created the world and what is in it through him,... (Hellenistic Synagogal Prayers aposCon 7.26. 1-3 Or prayer #3 “ Blessed are you, O Lord, King of the ages, who through Christ made everything, and through him in the beginning ordered that which was unprepared” (i.e. chaotic matter) (#3 prayer That meditates upon God’s Manifold Creative Power) (aposCon 7.34.1-8) or prayer #4 that addresses God the Father : “For you are the Father of wisdom, the Creator, as cause, of the creative workmanship through a Mediator....” #4 (aposCon 7.35.1-10);


The Jewish Geninza 4Q texts are clear that, despite delegation of important roles, the plan IS the Father’s plan and that he “determined all your works before you created them, together with the host of your spirits and the assembly of your holy ones… - all your designs for the end of time..” God counsels with those whose involvement he wants, but it remains God the Father's plan : “Moreover the Holy One, blessed be he, does nothing in his world without first taking counsel with them; then he acts, as it is written” (3Enoch :4 283).

This early Jewish teaching that the physical creation was accomplished for the purpose of advancing mankind is the same tradition as the early Christians held. New Testament Hermas taught : Quote: "...don’t you understand how great and mighty and marvelous God’s glory is, because he created the world for the sake of man, and subjected all his creation to man..” (Her 47:2-4).

The physical creation of the earliest ancient accounts was accomplished by taking “lessor” or more chaotic matter, and organizing it into a “higher” or more organized and purposeful form such as the organized earth had. Old Testament Enoch describes this same process: “And I called out a second time into the very lowest things, and I said, ‘Let one of the (in)visible things come out visibly, solid.’..” (2nd Enoch 26:1).

From this lesser organized, chaotic debris, the earth and other planets were formed : “And thus I made solid the heavenly circles (orbs). ...And from the rocks I assembled the dry land; and I called the dry land Earth. “ (2nd Enoch 28:1-2).

And thus, in company with the Pre-Mortal spirit of Jesus (called "the word” or “the right hand” in some accounts), the Father accomplished creation. “I said, “O Lord, you spoke at the beginning of creation, and said on the first day, ‘Let heaven and earth be made, ‘ and your word accomplished the work...Again, on the second day, you created the spirit of the firmament and commanded him to divide and separate the waters...On the third day you commanded the waters to be gather together...For your word went forth, and at once the work was done. “ (4th Enoch 3:38-42).

Even at this early, less sophisticated stage of existence, spirits were able to exercise their agency. Thus the spirits of men were able to exercise choice to take part in this plan despite difficulties they will experience in mortality (as Job was reminded), just as they are allowed moral choice in this life.

Given the grandeur and the pure intent and profound implications of God’s plan for mankind, it may start to make some sense of what it meant for Lucifer, not only to refuse to take part in the plan, but to openly rebel against the plan, and ultimately rebel against God the Father himself.

THE EARLY TEXTUAL CHRISTIAN TRADITIONS MAKES CLEAR THAT, IT IS PARTLY BECAUSE OF THE HONOR DUE ADAM AND HIS ROLE IN INAUGURATING THE FATHERS' PLAN THAT HE WAS CREATED IN THE IMAGE AND LIKENESS OF HIS GOD. AND IT WAS PARTLY BECAUSE HE WAS CREATED IN THE IMAGE OF THE LORD GOD THAT SPIRITS, ANGELS AND ALL OTHERS WERE COMMANDED BY THE LORD GOD TO HONOR ADAM, WHO WAS CREATED IN GOD'S OWN IMAGE. These other doctrines and traditions do not stand apart from the doctrine that adam was created in God's image, but many other prominent doctrines DEPEND UPON and draw from this first doctrine. Many such doctrines have interconnections.


E) LUCIFER’S REFUSAL TO HONOR ADAM WAS AN ORTHODOX TEACHING IN EARLY CHRISTIAN RELIGION

Regarding my referencse to Lucifer’s refusal to honor Adam. It is important to me that readers understand that I did not simply pick out a single “obscure” reference describing this story. Rather, this early doctrine was taught is described in many texts over a great deal of time and space.

For examples: Sedrach relates : “You commanded your angels to honor Adam, but he who was first among the angels disobeyed your order and did not honor him: and so you banished him because he transgressed your commandment and did not come forth (to honor) the creation of your hands." (The Apocalypse of Sedrach 5:1-7)

The Christian text “Life of Adam and Eve” relates the same incident : Speaking to Adam, the Devil said : “ ...because of you I am expelled and deprived of my glory which I had in the heavens in the midst of angels, and because of you I was cast out onto the earth.” 2 Adam answered, “What have I done to you, and what is my blame with you? Ch 13 “The devil replied,...It is because of you that I have been thrown out of there. 2 When .......Michael brought you and made (us) honor you in the sight of God, and the Lord God said, ‘Behold Adam! I have made you in our image and likeness.’ Ch 14 3 And I answered, ‘I do not honor Adam.’ ...’Why do you compel me? I will not worship one inferior and subsequent to me. I am prior to him in creation; before he was made, I was already made. He ought to worship me.’ 15 1 When they heard this, other angels who were under me refused to honor him. (Life of Adam and Eve (Vita) 12: 1-2, 13:13, 14:2-3; 15:1-3; 16:1-3)

The early Christian Text “Cave of Treasures” relates :“And when the prince of the lower order of angels saw what great majesty had been given unto Adam, he was jealous of him from that day, and he did not wish to honor him. And he said unto his hosts, "Ye shall not honor him, and ye shall not praise him with the angels. It is meet that ye should worship me, because I am fire and spirit; and not that I should worship a thing of dust, which hath been fashioned of fine dust."

Jewish Enoch relates, in the context of this Lucifer’s rebellion : “ the devil understood how I wished to create another world, so that everything could be subjected to Adam on the earth, to rule and reign over it. ....And he became aware of his condemnation and of the sin which he sinned previously. 6 And that is why he thought up the scheme against Adam. (2nd Enoch 31:2-8, 32:1)

Jewish Haggadah (having Talmudic origins) also relates : “The extraordinary qualities with which Adam was blessed, physical and spiritual as well, aroused the envy of the angels...After Adam had been endowed with a soul, God invited all the angels to come and pay him reverence and homage. Satan, the greatest of the angels in heaven,....refused to pay heed to the behest of God, saying, “You created us angels from the splendor of the Shekinah, and now you command us to cast ourselves down before the creature which you fashioned out of the dust of the ground!” God answered, “Yet this dust of the ground has more wisdom and understanding than you.”... (The Haggadah -The Fall of Satan)

The text then relates the "battle of wits" between Lucifers spirit and Adam's spirit where Lucifer is bested and loses "face".

Christian Bartholomew also confirms the story as Lucifer says : “And when I came from the ends of the world, Michael said to me: ‘Honor the image of God which he has made in his own likeness.’ But I said: ‘I am fire of fire. I was the first angel to be formed, and shall I worship clay and matter?” And Michael said to me: ‘Honor [him], lest god be angry with you.’ I answered: ‘God will not be angry with me, but I will set up my throne over against his throne, and shall be as he is [Isa. 14:14f]. ‘ then god was angry with me and cast me down,...” (The Gospel of Bartholomew Ch IV)

This doctrinal controversy is not simply Jewish and Christian in it’s nature, but it’s also ISLAMIC, as confirmed by the Sixth Century Holy Quran text :

"..And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "I am going to create a man (Adam) from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud. So, when I have fashioned him completely and breathed into him (Adam) the soul which I created for him, then fall (you) down prostrating yourselves unto him." So, the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together. Except Iblis (Satan), - he refused to be among the prostrators. (Sura 15:28-31)

In Sura 20 : “ And (remember) when We said to the angels: "Prostrate yourselves to Adam." They prostrated (all) except Iblis (Satan), who refused. (Sura 20:116)

In Sura 38 : “ (Remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "Truly, I am going to create man from clay". So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him." So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them: Except Iblis (Satan) he was proud and was one of the disbelievers. (Sura 38:71-74)

In Sura 7 : “And surely, We created you (your father Adam) and then gave you shape (the noble shape of a human being), then We told the angels, "Prostrate to Adam", and they prostrated, except Iblis (Satan), he refused to be of those who prostrate. (Allah) said: "What prevented you (O Iblis) that you did not prostrate, when I commanded you?" Iblis said: "I am better than him (Adam), You created me from fire, and him You created from clay." (Sura 7:11-12)

In Sura 18 :“And (remember) when We said to the angels; "Prostrate to Adam." So they prostrated except Iblis (Satan). He was one of the jinns; he disobeyed the Command of his Lord.... (Sura 18:50)

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The point in repeating this doctrine from so many different ancient sources such as ancient Jewish literature, ancient Christian literature and ancient Islamic Literature and from multiple versions is to show that this specific controversy and it’s relation to the doctrine of the “Origin” of Satan, is VERY ancient, the doctrine is VERY widespread among a large group of ancient literature, and the doctrine is VERY “orthodox” to the ancient Christians and other religious groups as well.

F) THE HONOR DUE ADAM WAS PERFECTLY LOGICAL IN VIEW OF ADAM'S IMPORTANT ROLE IN GOD THE FATHER'S PLAN

It ought to be perfectly clear that as milestones were reached in the moving forward of God’s Plan for the spirits of mankind, the inauguration of mortality was an incredibly important phase that all spirits had long been anticipating. Thus, the “honoring of Adam” was not simply an arbitrary and spontaneous “office party” thrown at a whim, but it was a recognition of the culmination of organization and creation over a great deal of time and the inauguration of the opening phase of mortality of all mankind..


G) THE NATURE OF LUCIFER’S REFELLION IN THE CONTEXT OF GOD THE FATHER’S PLAN.

The nature of Lucifer’s punishment indicates the seriousness of what he did : When Enoch tells the fallen angel Azaz’el that “There will not be peace unto you; a grave judgment has come upon you. They will put you in bonds because you have taught injustice (1st Enoch 13:1-3), Enoch is not speaking of mere “naughtiness” or mere “disagreement” with God’s plan. Such fallen angels were told “judgment is passed upon you. 5 From now on you will not be able to ascend into heaven unto all eternity, (1st Enoch 14:3-5) because their rebellion had much greater ramifications than simple disagreement with God.

The jewish Haggadah describes the “wary reluctance” some souls experienced to leave a pre-mortal “heaven” to be born into mortality. Speaking this sort of “reluctance” the Zohar describes how God, tells a spirit to “Go now, descend into this and that place, into this and this body.” Yet often enough the soul would reply: “Lord of the world, I am content to remain in this realm, , and have no wish to depart to some other, where I shall be in thralldom, and become stained.” Whereupon the Holy One, be blessed, would reply: “Your destiny is, and has been from the day of thy forming, to go into that world.”

Such “unconfidence” is not “rebellion” and such souls are given encouragement and still sent into mortality through birth according to God’s plan. However, just as “reluctance” is not “rebellion”, Lucifer’s “rebellion” was not merely “reluctance”. Lucifer’s rebellion was described as a willful and confident full fledged disagreement which evolved into a plan for an asaultive counter “coup” having a DIFFERENT administration under a DIFFERENT King and DIFFERENT goals to the ultimate effect of nullifying God’s initial plan. In the context of controversies such as Lucifer’s “last straw” over Adam, one can better understand the sparks that made up the fires of the Rebellion or “war in heaven” itself. @JM123 and @Scott C. you will notice THIS different plan is where your LDS theology plugs into this history and will understand what Lucifers plan entailed. Only historians and movements that seek a return to early Christian traditions can do this.

In reference to a different, earlier controversy regarding the knowledge, that IF man, having free will, was sent to earth, then mankind would certainly commit moral atrocities. This was known long before the fall of Adam, and in fact, long before Adam was placed into the Garden. 3rd Enoch relates one of the fallen angels complaints against God the Father and his plan and the reply of the future messiah. :

"Then three of the ministering angels, Uzzah, Azzah, and Aza’el, came and laid charges against me in the heavenly height. They said before the Holy One, blessed be he, ‘Lord of the Universe, did not the primeval ones give you good advice when they said, Do not create man!’ The Holy One, blessed be he, replied, ‘I have made and will sustain him; I will carry and deliver him.’ (3rd Enoch 4:6)

Such references hint of the other controversies and together, they offer a coherent history regarding such related controversies and their relationship to Lucifers Fall.


Regarding the current Controversy with Adam :

Jewish Haggadah relates that “The extraordinary qualities with which Adam was blessed, physical and spiritual as well, aroused the envy of the angels......You created us angels from the splendor of the Shekinah, and now you command us to cast ourselves down before the creature which you fashioned out of the dust of the ground!” God answered, “Yet this dust of the ground has more wisdom and understanding than you.”...

This Haggadic summary illuminates the growing anger in an envious Lucifer. This haggadic text goes on to relate a subsequent battle of wits between the spirits of Lucifer and Adam which leaves Lucifer publicly upstaged and discontented and frustrated. Much like the one-sided debates we sometimes see on this public forum when a poster loses face. How would an envious, upstaged and angry Lucifer be expected to react? Especially given that “the devil understood how I wished to create another world, so that everything could be subjected to Adam on the earth, to rule and reign over it.” 2nd Enoch 31:2-8, 32:1;

As the earth was created and it’s preparations finished and the time arrived for God’s plan to be inaugurated, the mood among the hosts of heaven becomes one of anticipation and excitement. It is under these circumstance that the body for Adam is created and joined to his spirit and God commanded that Adam was to be honored for his role in inaugurating God’s plan upon the earth. Michael calls all the angels to honor Adam for what he is about to do. A seemingly “fed up” Lucifer arrives to the occasion with a bad attitude.

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As I’ve pointed out, there are many, many confirming versions of this same story. In these early christian texts, the anger and frustration of Lucifer does not remain a private gripe, but becomes an open rebellion.

”... one from the order of the archangels deviated, together with the division that was under his authority. He thought up the impossible idea, that he might place his throne higher than the clouds which are above the earth, and that he might become equal to my power. 5 And I hurled him out from the height, together with his angels.” (2nd Enoch 29:3-5)

The Book of John the evangelist confirms Satan’s presumption in similar language “He set his seat above the clouds of heaven”. Bartholemew records this occurrence in almost the same words as the other versions : “I will set my throne over against his throne” (bar 4:55) ;

It is for carrying out the actual plan and organized attempt to “set up [his] throne above the stars of heaven and ..be like the Most High” that Lucifer was punished. (“Stars” was a euphamism for the greatest angels). Speaking of Lucifer and the angels who allied with him the ancient psalm read : “Now as they were warring with each other, they made bold to attack the land of Light, considering themselves capable of conquering it. Yet they know not that what they thought will recoil upon their own heads. But there was a host of angels in the Land of Light which possessed the power to issue forth and overcome the enemy of the Father, whom it pleased that through the Word that he would send, he should subdue the rebels who desired to raise themselves above what was more exalted than they.... (The Coptic Psalm-book - Let us worship the spirit of the paraclete) Psalm 223 (allberry 9-11) p 328; )

This attempted “coup” would have divided heaven and created a rival Kingship over a rival group in heaven. It was an attempt to set up a rival administration with it’s own rival plan for man. This was no mere show of minor “disloyalty”. Also, one should note the doctrine that the father delegated the successful battle which overcame Lucifer “through the Word” (who was his son). The earthly Devil had undergone multiple prior perceived offenses as the pre-mortal Lucifer. AND, his memories of pre-mortal happenings were not “veiled” from him, as Adams were. Certain battle lines were drawn long, long ago.


It is in this larger set of contexts that it was said : And the Rebel meditating these things Fol. 5b, col. 2 would not render obedience to God, and of his own free will he asserted his independence and separated himself from God. But he was - swept away out of heaven and fell, and the fall of himself and of all his company from heaven took place ...because he turned aside from the right way, ... he lost the apparel of his glory. And behold, from that time until the present day, he and all his hosts have been stripped of their apparel, (Cave of Treasures, chapt on “The Revolt of Satan”)

It’s unnecessary to the purpose of this exposition to discussed the symbolism of Lucifer’s apparel, his armor, and the “names” which were written in his hand (as the christian Abbaton also describes in greater detail), but it’s apparent that Lucifer unwillingly undergoes a ritual removal of his powers and authorities and authority for leadership and, with those angels who took part in his planned rebellion, he is cast down into the earth. However, such histories lend sense and context and confirmation to other histories such as Apocalypse of abraham when Azaz’el is told regarding Abraham “...shame on you Azazel! For Abraham’s portion is in heaven, and yours is on earth, for you have selected here, (and) become enamored of the dwelling place of your blemish. .... For behold, the garment which in heaven was formerly yours has been set aside for him, and the corruption which was on him has gone over to you.” (The Apocalypse of Abraham 13: 4,5,7-14)

Once Lucifer finds himself and his fallen angels on the earth, his own recognition and understanding and sense of what he had done increased, but this recognition was not associated with remorse nor repentance, but rather with an obstinate resolve and desire and plan for revenge (and other motives) and for continuing his rebellion.

“..he fled from heaven; Sotona, because his name was satanail. 5 In this way he became different from the angels. His nature did not change, (but) his thought did, since his consciousness of righteous and sinful things changed. And he became aware of his condemnation and of the sin which he sinned previously. 6 And that is why he thought up the scheme against Adam." (2nd Enoch 31:2-8, 32:1)


It is in such a context that later, the fallen Lucifer later explained to the fallen Adam the source of Lucifers' enmity towards Adam (who could not remember events prior to mortality) : ..Michael brought you and made (us) worship you in the sight of God, and the Lord God said, ‘Behold Adam! I have made you in our image and likeness.’ And I answered, ‘I do not worship Adam.’ ...’Why do you compel me? I will not worship one inferior and subsequent to me. I am prior to him in creation; before he was made, I was already made. He ought to worship me.’ .... When they heard this, other angels who were under me refused to worship him. And Michael asserted, ‘Worship the image of God. But if now you will not worship, the Lord God will be wrathful with you.’ And I said, ‘If he be wrathful with me, I will set my throne above the stars of heaven and will be like the Most High.” (Life of Adam and Eve (Vita) 12: 1-2, 13:13, 14:2-3; 15:1-3)

I hope it is also clear that the early Christians and texts DID have a sensible concept of the origin of the Devil and for some of the underlying motives as to why Lucifer battles against God and God's plan for the moral education of those among mankind who are willing and wanting to live by the moral laws which will ultimately prepare them to live in happiness and harmony in a social heaven for eternity.

Compared to modern theories (or lack of theories), the ancient Christian doctrines that were in the context of pre-creation/pre-mortal theology were, I think, more coherent and more logical and represented a more accurate view, not only of the Devils origin but of Gods purposes and the relationships that existed both then and now. Such doctrines were "great crossroads of agreement" for early Judeo-Christian-Islamic traditions AND Importantly, they explain and make rational, many of the most difficult moral and theological questions that plague modern christian theory.

Clear
ακσεσιω

 

[Muffled]

I have been a Christian for 35 years. I don't study it as I should be doing and am not on a level of knowledge as some in the forums. However this is the first I have heard of this, don't ask me how I missed it in teachings, but from churchofjesuschrist.org:

"When we were born, we forgot our pre-earth life" and "Coming to earth is part of His plan of happiness for us, which allows us to receive a physical body in His image and continue to increase in wisdom and faith"

I personally wanted to share, as it enlightened me because I didn't realize I had a life before I was born that I forgot?

I believe I don't know of any Biblical basis fr this other than the single verse about re-incarnation. Of course the Resurrection is a re--incarnation but that is a special case.

 

[Muffled]

Bible in no way supports pre-existence.

I believe then that you don't believe God pre-existed before entering the body of Jesus.

 

[Muffled]

But from where they got it ?

We have something in that type in Islam but I don't know that much about.

I believe it could be something from a Hadith. The writers of Hadiths tend to borrow things from Christianity and Judaism. I can't thnk of anything offhand from the Qu'ran.

 

[ecco]

I believe then that you don't believe God pre-existed before entering the body of Jesus.

God "entering the body of Jesus"?

I thought the belief was that God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost, all were one and have existed eternally? If they have always been one, there is no "entering".

 

[The Reverend Bob]

God "entering the body of Jesus"?

I thought the belief was that God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost, all were one and have existed eternally? If they have always been one, there is no "entering".

I don't think he is orthodox when it comes to theology.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

I believe then that you don't believe God pre-existed before entering the body of Jesus.

How does God pre-exist? Explain.

 

[Pastek]

I believe it could be something from a Hadith. The writers of Hadiths tend to borrow things from Christianity and Judaism. I can't thnk of anything offhand from the Qu'ran.

Yes it's a hadith saying that Adam saw everyone one (humanity) and in particular he liked the prophet David and asked God who he was.
And he also asked God why some people were disabled etc
I don't know if there's something similar in Judaism or Christians's texts

 

[Clear]

@Pastek remarked "Yes it's a hadith saying that Adam saw everyone one (humanity) and in particular he liked the prophet David and asked God who he was.
And he also asked God why some people were disabled etc
I don't know if there's something similar in Judaism or Christians's texts" (Post #92)


Hi @Pastek

There is a lot of shared tradition and literature among the Abrahamic religions. It is simply not studied much. As I pointed out in posts #82, 83, 84 and 85, the Jewish, the Christian and the Islamic historical literature all agree regarding the specific controversy over the honoring of Adam in the pre-creation time period. It is a crossroads doctrine that all three Abrahamic literature traditions agree on.

In response to your post 392, yes, there are similar descriptions throughout the ascension literature of multiple prophets in Judeo-Christian literature that describe prophets who had visions of others in the pre-creation/pre-mortality time period. For examples

In Jewish Enoch, the Prophet Enoch describes pre-creation heaven where God, Jesus, angels and the spirits of mankind existed and he asks about the Messiah who was there with God the Father and Enoch asks who he is. The Prophet Enoch says “… in that place, I saw the fountain of righteousness, which does not become depleted and is surrounded completely by numerous fountains of wisdom…. At that hour, that Son of Man was given a name, in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits, the beginning of days. Even before the creation of the sun and the moon, before the creation of the stars, he was given a name in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits. 4 He will become a staff for the righteous ones in order that they may lean on him and not fall. He is the light of the gentiles and he will become the hope of those who are sick in their hearts. 5 All those who dwell upon the earth shall fall and worship before him: they shall glorify, bless, and sing the name of the Lord of the Spirits. 6 For this purpose he became the Chosen One;…. and because they will be saved in his name and it is his good pleasure that they have life.” 1st Enoch 48:1-7


Another description of this same occurrence comes from an earlier portion of Enoch where Enoch describes God the Father and Jesus, the Messiah who was with him from the very beginning of the Fathers plan for mankind. Enoch says : “1 At that place, I saw …the “chief of days.” (“he who precedes time,” “The beginning of days” etc.). And his head was white like wool, and there was with him another individual whose face was like that of a human being. His countenance was full of grace like that of one among the holy angels. 2 And I asked the one–from among the angels–who was going with me, and who had revealed to me all the secrets regarding the One who was born of human beings, “Who is this, and from whence is he who is going as the prototype of the Before-Time (i.e. should be translated - ...from where could he be, and for what reason does he go with him who precedes time?”). 3 And he answered me and said to me, “This is the Son of Man, to whom belongs righteousness, and with whom righteousness dwells. And he will open all the hidden storerooms; for the Lord of the Spirits has chosen him, and he is destined to be victorious before the Lord of the Spirits in eternal uprightness. 4 This Son of Man whom you have seen is the One who would remove the Kings and the mighty ones from their comfortable seats, and the strong ones from their thrones. He shall loosen the reins of the strong and crush the teeth of the sinners. 5 He shall depose the kings from their thrones and kingdoms. For they do not extol and glorify him, and neither do they obey him, the source of their kingship. 1st Enoch 46:1-6;


While multiple records describe the existence of and role of the Messiah in the pre-creation realm with his Father and the rest of the spirits there, other literature describe the Choosing of Jesus as the Messiah in this same time period as the plan of the Father moves forward.


In the Ascension of Isaiah, Isaiah describes the sending of Jesus into the world by God, his Father saying : “And I heard the angel who led me, and he said to me, “this is the Most High of the high ones, who dwells in the holy world, who rests among the holy ones, who will be called by the Holy Spirit in the mouth of the righteous the Father of the Lord.” And I heard the voice of the Most High, the Father of my Lord, as he said to my Lord Christ, who will be called Jesus, “Go out and descend through all the heavens...12 and they shall not know that you (are) with me when with the voice of the heavens I summon you...14 And afterwards you shall ascend from the gods of death to your place, and ….. you shall ascend and sit at my right hand, ….. 16 This command I heard the Great Glory giving to my Lord.” Martyrdom and Ascension of Isaiah . 10:6-16

There are specific references in early Christian literature much like the Hadith you describe in the Christian work, The Apocalypse of Abraham where the Prophet is shown in vision, mankind who will be sent to earth, some good, some bad, some will even his “his people”. The accompanying angel speaks to Abraham thusly : ““And he said to me, “Look now beneath your feet at the firmament and understand the creation that was planned (- Gk skiagraphein,, i.e. sketched, outlined, depicted, prefigured, foreshadowed.”) on this expanse, (and) the creatures which are in it and the ages prepared according to it. And I looked beneath the firmament at my feet and I saw the likeness of heaven and the things that were therein. 3 And (I saw) there the earth and it’s fruit, and it’s moving things and it’s things that had souls, and it’s host of men and the impiety of their souls and their justification, and their pursuit of their works and the abyss and its torments and its lower depths and (the) perdition in it....6 And I saw there the garden of Eden and it’s fruits, and the source and the river flowing from it. And its trees and their flowering, making fruits, and I saw men doing justice in it, their food and their est. 7And I saw there a great crowd of men and women and children, half of them on the right side of the portrayal, and half of them on the left side of the portrayal.

Abraham in this vision is shown the spirits of mankind who will be born into the world in the future according the God’s plan to populate the world with embodied spirits. Some of the individuals are the prophets like Jeremiah, whom “the Lord knew before” the Lord formed Jeremiah in the womb (Jer 1:5).

During this vision Abraham asked God : “Eternal, Mighty One! What is this vision of creation?” 2 And he said to me, “This is my will with regard to what is in the council and it became good before my face.” That is, this was a vision of what God had planned to exist and then the text moves forward to describing the actual creation :

And then, afterward, I gave them a command by my word and they came into existence. Whatever I had decreed was to exist had already been planned in this and all the previously created (things) you have seen came to stand before me.” 3 And I said, “O sovereign, mighty and eternal! Why are the people in this picture on this side and on that?” 4 And he said to me, “These who are on the left side (e.g. the “goats” of matt 25:32-33) are a multitude of tribes who existed previously...and through you. some (who have been) prepared for judgment and ordering, others for revenge and perdition at the end of the age. 5 those on the right side (the “sheep” of Matt 25:32-33) of the picture are the people set apart for me of the people with azazel; these are the ones I have prepared to be born of you and to be called my people.” The Apocalypse of Abraham 21:1-7 and 22:1-5 and 23:1-3;



The theme of such literature is this early Judeo-Christian model in the early literature, the Christian describe their belief that the spirits of mankind existed prior to coming to earth via birth and the some of the spirits such as the prophets were special and faithful and had characteristics which qualified them for their special roles once they came into mortality.

Good luck coming up with your own models and understanding as to the nature of mankind and what God planned for mankinds' ultimate destiny and what he is, therefore, doing with mankind in this life.

Clear
ειτζσινεω

 

[Katzpur]

I have been a Christian for 35 years. I don't study it as I should be doing and am not on a level of knowledge as some in the forums. However this is the first I have heard of this, don't ask me how I missed it in teachings, but from churchofjesuschrist.org:

"When we were born, we forgot our pre-earth life" and "Coming to earth is part of His plan of happiness for us, which allows us to receive a physical body in His image and continue to increase in wisdom and faith"

I personally wanted to share, as it enlightened me because I didn't realize I had a life before I was born that I forgot?

If the spirit of man is eternal (which you may or may not believe), you must realize that eternity doesn't go in one direction only. I believe God created our spirits out of highly refined matter that was co-eternal with Him. This matter, which can best be described as "truth and light" was unorganized until He used it to form our immortal spirits. To me, this is one of the most beautiful doctrines of Mormonism, and helps make sense of God's plan for our eternal happiness. While it is not directly addressed in the Bible, there are several passages of scripture that do imply that this doctrine was accepted by Christians anciently and believed to be true.

(Please excuse the late response. I have been out of the country for the past three weeks.)

 

[Pastek]

The theme of such literature is this early Judeo-Christian model in the early literature, the Christian describe their belief that the spirits of mankind existed prior to coming to earth via birth and the some of the spirits such as the prophets were special and faithful and had characteristics which qualified them for their special roles once they came into mortality.

Clear
ειτζσινεω

We have to read those texts they are full of details. That was very interesting thanks for sharing

 

[paarsurrey]

I have been a Christian for 35 years. I don't study it as I should be doing and am not on a level of knowledge as some in the forums. However this is the first I have heard of this, don't ask me how I missed it in teachings, but from churchofjesuschrist.org:

"When we were born, we forgot our pre-earth life" and "Coming to earth is part of His plan of happiness for us, which allows us to receive a physical body in His image and continue to increase in wisdom and faith"

I personally wanted to share, as it enlightened me because I didn't realize I had a life before I was born that I forgot?

It is a wrong concept, as I understand, that we had a previous life.

Regards

 

[Clear]

If the spirit of man is eternal (which you may or may not believe), you must realize that eternity doesn't go in one direction only. I believe God created our spirits out of highly refined matter that was co-eternal with Him. This matter, which can best be described as "truth and light" was unorganized until He used it to form our immortal spirits. To me, this is one of the most beautiful doctrines of Mormonism, and helps make sense of God's plan for our eternal happiness. While it is not directly addressed in the Bible, there are several passages of scripture that do imply that this doctrine was accepted by Christians anciently and believed to be true.

(Please excuse the late response. I have been out of the country for the past three weeks.)

Hi Katzpur

I like this historical insight that eternity, in ancient Judeo-christianity did not "go in one direction only". Just a quick point of support.

The Hebrew word often used for the english term "eternal"/"eternity" is "Olam" (עוֹלָם). The term is used in ancient text in the sentence me'olam Le'olam, meaning "from eternity to eternity". While we say "forever and ever", in the Hebrew form it referred to the eternity past, from which the spirits of mankind came, and the eternity future, into which the spirits of mankind go. Both surrounded by the important mortal "now". Forever and ever.

See you Katzpur.

Clear
ειτωσινεω