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Featured We had a pre-earth life we don't have memory of?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by JM123, Jul 23, 2019.

  1. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    A short reply to part of your essay:

    In Islamic thought, much of what you have written about is attributed to instruction from God. As I think you said, none of us have good proof to prove any of what has been said, yet many people have been murdered over these issues. The best I can do is to believe that evil exists, and that God will protect me from much of it that is not good for instruction.

    I used a translator on your signature and it says you are Greek or Rumanian? I only mention this as an aid to help me understand your point of view on these issues.
     
  2. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    Ellen Brown said : "I used a translator on your signature and it says you are Greek or Rumanian? I only mention this as an aid to help me understand your point of view on these issues." (post #61)

    Your "translator" is incorrect. My "signature" is actually greek letters representing german words that is a system for me to keep track of posts for historical purposes. Knowing nationality will not help you to understand my point of view.

    My point of view is that more data is helpful in understanding more accurately what is going on in this life. Specifically, the greater historical data available in early Judeo-Christian textual histories concerning conditions before this life are helpful in understanding conditions and purposes during this life..

    For example, philosophers, theists, and agnostics/athiests have complained that God created Lucifer/Satan/the Devil and wonder why God would have created the sort of evil that causes so much havoc and suffering in this world. Why would God have done this if he could have created the same world without evil in it?. How did an angel in a position of trust and power become an enemy to God and the rest of us? Many such questions bother individuals who have insufficient answers to them.

    While the Bible has references to this period of time such as when Jesus speaks of the pre-creation time saying "I saw Satan fall like lightning from Heaven." (Luke 10:18) there is not enough data in the biblical text to describe the process and details surrounding it. However, the Early Jewish and Christian and Islamic historical literature provided a great deal more detail and all all agree on this specific process in such a way that it relieves God from the moral burden of having created evil.


    Good Luck Ellen, in coming to your own models as what God wanted to accomplish by creating this mortal experience with both its' good experiences and its' bad as well.

    Clear
    σεειειω
     
    #62 Clear, Jul 24, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2019
  3. Scott C.

    Scott C. Just one guy

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    Well you're a buzz kill. :)
     
  4. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Drop by Starbux and i will buy you something with a buzz.
     
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  5. The Reverend Bob

    The Reverend Bob Fart Machine and Beastmaster

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    How does that prove pre-existence?
     
  6. The Reverend Bob

    The Reverend Bob Fart Machine and Beastmaster

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    Gnostic heresies are not evidence that early Christians believed in pre-existence or reincarnation. They are evidence that Gnostics believed in pre-existence or reincarnation
     
  7. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
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    Goal post moving above. I wasn’t presenting ‘proof’. I was contesting your statement that the Bible in no way supports pre-existence.
     
  8. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    Not trying to be argumentative. I spent over 30 years in Evangelical Christianity, more than 7 in Islam, and 5 in Mormonism. It've learned to distrust the "experts", who for unknown reasons have widely varying ideas about these issues. Some of these individuals seem to have adopted positions that would benefit them, without regard to other opinions or the truth. The rift between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox seems like an issue that they could have simply agreed to disagree on and not split the church??? Sadly, it seems that when faced with a choice of fighting or getting along, Huumans choose to kill and maim. I am often embarrassed for mankind in front of the Creator.

    Inexplicably God has chosen to bless me in the face of awful suffering and sorrow caused by man (From 23rd Psalm)

    It seems to me that much of the OT is a loose story, and not a book of law. My own opinion of the matters in discussion is likely more Science Fictiony and would not be palatable in this venue.
     
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  9. The Reverend Bob

    The Reverend Bob Fart Machine and Beastmaster

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    It doesn't
     
  10. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
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    It does!

    As you present no reasoning.
     
  11. The Reverend Bob

    The Reverend Bob Fart Machine and Beastmaster

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    Where?
     
  12. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    Congratulations. You have shown that silly superstitious beliefs have existed in man's imaginings for many millennia.

    Care to show us something we didn't already know.
     
  13. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    This one?
    Perhaps I should have said:
    So, in addition to interpretations of 6000 year old scripture, people are now getting their understanding of all things religious by reading Facebook.

    What's next? Tweets from @TheRealGod or @iamjesus?
     
  14. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    Why would I want to look for them? Why would I want to get dragged down into the mire of superstition? Why are your superstitious bogs any better than all the other superstitious bogs out there? Why are your superstitious bogs any better than accepting reality?
     
  15. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    That's inaccurate.

    Atheists have NOT complained that God created Lucifer/Satan/the Devil.
    Atheists DO NOT wonder why God would have created the sort of evil that causes so much havoc and suffering in this world.

    Atheists have challenged theists to explain why God created Lucifer/Satan/the Devil.
    Atheists have challenged theists to think about why their God would have created the sort of evil that causes so much havoc and suffering in this world.

    You do see the difference, don't you?
     
  16. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    Hi @ecco

    I understand the suggested semantics and agree with your distinction. I was mainly addressing "theists" since they are the ones who have the greatest stake in religious concepts and was trying to describe the problem inside the context of a religious forum (and thus mainly speaking to theists). I simply assumed that other readers would understand the problem with coherence and the point that early Judeo-Christianity which has a greater amount of sacred literature and tradition did not have the same philosophical issues with their doctrines as the later christian movements have with their theories.

    Ecco said : "Congratulations. You have shown that silly superstitious beliefs have existed in man's imaginings for many millennia. Care to show us something we didn't already know. "

    If you actually are knowledgeable in early Judeo-Christian history and their literature, this is a surprise and good. If you are simply posturing as though you have this knowledge, then the inaccurate posturing represents a defect.

    While I agree with the underlying point that mankind including athiests have beliefs, some of which are silly and superstitious, the pettiness and irrelevance of your thoughts will, over time, cause you to actually become a petty and irrelevant person.

    IF, however, you can attempt to find deeper and more profound thoughts and more relevance to your comments, your life will be more fulfilling and your interactions with people can be more satisfying than they are now.

    In any case, I hope you can find wonderful insights and find happiness in life.

    Good luck ecco and thank you for your suggested corrections. (those that had relevance)

    Clear
    σιακφυω
     
    #76 Clear, Jul 25, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2019
  17. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    You ignored that one site was Scientific American. Or would you prefer to University department's work? History of DOPS | Division of Perceptual Studies
     
  18. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    One doesn't need to have a great understanding of Judeo-Christian history and their literature or other writings from and of the past to know that "silly superstitious beliefs have existed in man's imaginings for many millennia."

    What is petty and irrelevant about stating the realities of our ancestors?

    What silly and superstitious beliefs do you imagine atheists have?

    Are you admitting that your beliefs are silly and superstitious?






    Condescending preaching will get you nowhere.

    Our ancestors needed silly superstitious beliefs to help them explain some of the mysteries of life. Some people still need these support systems. The rest of us do quite well without them.
     
  19. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    Is this the post you are referring to?



    RE: DOPS

    I see that you, again, just posted a link. It seems you do not understand the article well enough to excerpt anything that supports your argument.

    Here are a few excerpts I thought were interesting...
    DOPS is one of very few University-based research units in the world that investigates similar paranormal phenomena.
    Do you wonder why this is so? Universities are at the forefront of research in amny different areas. Does it occur to you that universities don't do research in psi because psi has been debunked tso many times already?

    Although members of DOPS staff have at one time or another investigated examples of many types of paranormal phenomena mentioned above (and some others not mentioned), it seemed wise to focus our efforts and resources. Therefore, in recent years the primary researchers have concentrated almost exclusively on young children who claim to remember previous lives and on near-death experiences. ​

    Did they decide to concentrate "almost exclusively on young children who claim to remember previous lives and on near-death experiences" because their previous research avenues produced no replicable results?


    But, anyway, it's now up to you to find something in the article/website that supports your argument.
     
  20. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    There are many articles that support my argument. I've led you to the door to all the research. If you are interested, walk through that door and read the studies.
     
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