1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured We don't need to take materialist atheism as a whole seriously.

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by 1137, Jul 16, 2017.

  1. 1137

    1137 Xepera maSet | O.S.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2011
    Messages:
    11,507
    Ratings:
    +1,703
    Religion:
    Order of the Serpent
    Let's jump right into the why.

    1. It's a supposedly non position, something followers parrot pretty much more than they say anything else. Just a lack of belief according to them, which is absurd and unlogical in it's on right.

    2. It won't be defended because it's supposedly not a position. Any ideology that can't or won't defend itself can't be seriously considered, it's the equivalent to an unfalisfiable hypothesis.

    3. They cannot provide the slightest evidence for the position. Literally all we have in favor of physicalism is brain-mind correlation, but materialism has ridden this all the way to the end goal of reduction. After being asked for years by anyone outside their position, still not one shred of evidence has been put forth.

    4. The immaterial is self evident, which for any objective thinker discredits the position anyways. Math, logic, the laws of nature themselves, certain fields, and most obviously our own subjective experience.

    5. Most will claim the position is default, that we start from physicalism and go from their, despite the fact that this is self evidently not the case. This is an extremely dishonest tactic most groups won't even use specifically because said groups are able and willing to defend their position.

    6. The burden of proof is itself a game based in #1, 2, and 3. Again, if a position can and will not defend itself we need not take it seriously.

    7. Fideism, faith over science and reason, is rampart in this position, where people will literally deny any valid arguments for gods, will deny the existence of things like the self and math, will deny the benefits of religion, will deny any science not directly supporting materialism, and worse they'll pretend none of it was presented at all. This is done, of course, because the arguments can't be refuted and the position cannot be defended.

    I like the number 7, and we have more than enough reasons to not take materialism and atheism in this form seriously. It refuses to defend itself, denies the self evident, has provided no evidence, plays dirty games, and rejects factual knowledge on faith.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  2. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2017
    Messages:
    2,732
    Ratings:
    +2,008
    Religion:
    None
    Yet we will continue rejecting the theists unsupported claims about gods.

    We need no defense for that position, although its justification is robust nevertheless. There is no burden of proof because there is no claim to knowledge.

    We also have no need to refute other claims based in faith. They are just opinions.

    Religion offered me no benefit, so I cast it aside. Freeing myself of it thusly, however, did.

    We don't need you to take us seriously. Nor does science. Feel free to bay at the moon if that's what gives your life meaning.
     
    • Winner Winner x 7
    • Like Like x 3
  3. Altfish

    Altfish Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2014
    Messages:
    2,089
    Ratings:
    +1,464
    Religion:
    Humanist
    Yawn - have the theists nothing better to throw at us atheists?
     
    • Like Like x 3
  4. Jaiket

    Jaiket Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Messages:
    7,560
    Ratings:
    +1,385
    Hi.

    I don't really like the claim that atheism is a lack of belief but in some cases it seems quite appropriate. On what grounds do you think it is absurd and unlogical?
     
  5. ADigitalArtist

    ADigitalArtist Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2015
    Messages:
    2,897
    Ratings:
    +2,745
    Religion:
    Irreligious Agnostic Atheistic Apatheist
    Starting a thread with 'we don't need to take x position seriously' is already a bad sign that no productive conversation is going to take place, because you've already stated you won't take the POV of the other side seriously.

    This is also an exasperating repeat of arguments already rebutted, (re:That's not fideism. A position that a non-physical substance is unevidenced is still a position) to the extent of I feel more like copy pasting from one of the million other samey threads you've done and apparently selectively ignored replies, or are just really comfortable generalizing all materialist atheists into one pile (of straw.)

    Is this just a pet project, at this point?
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Winner Winner x 3
  6. 1137

    1137 Xepera maSet | O.S.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2011
    Messages:
    11,507
    Ratings:
    +1,703
    Religion:
    Order of the Serpent
    Simply put, if I find the existence of no gods more likely than the existence of one or more gods, I believe that there are no gods, or that this position is more likely. It is, indeed, a belief. Not that atheism is a positive assertion that there are no gods, which goes beyond simple belief. It's comparable to how I believe Bigfoot and unicorns are fabrications.
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  7. 1137

    1137 Xepera maSet | O.S.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2011
    Messages:
    11,507
    Ratings:
    +1,703
    Religion:
    Order of the Serpent
    So you recognize how many times we've been through this, but turned a blind eye to the fact that none of those times provided the slightest support for your position? That's just ridiculous. Half these problems would be easy to avoid if atheists simply admitted they had a belief and would defend it, but after asking a recognized million times, with still no shred being presented, the simplest conclusion is there is none to be provided.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  8. Jesster

    Jesster Friendly skeptic

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2017
    Messages:
    64
    Ratings:
    +71
    Religion:
    Agnostic Atheist / Secular Humanist
    We don't need to take this thread as a whole seriously.
     
    • Winner Winner x 5
    • Funny Funny x 2
  9. ADigitalArtist

    ADigitalArtist Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2015
    Messages:
    2,897
    Ratings:
    +2,745
    Religion:
    Irreligious Agnostic Atheistic Apatheist
    I have provided support for my position, both in my own words, video and article rebuttals. You've either forgotten, choose to ignore it, or dismissed it. To say it's nothing is ironically the exact same thing you're accusing others of doing.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  10. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2017
    Messages:
    2,732
    Ratings:
    +2,008
    Religion:
    None
    That's not the atheist position, although some atheists may choose to hold it. It's irrelevant how likely an atheist considers gods to be. What's relevant is that he has not picked one to believe in.

    This atheist has no opinion on the likelihood of gods. I merely state that I have no evidence for any, no need for any, and therefore believe in none. Why would I?
     
    • Like Like x 2
  11. Sartre

    Sartre Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2015
    Messages:
    3,476
    Ratings:
    +2,611
    Do you want to present a legitimate argument as why materialism should not be the null hypothesis, or are we to just take your word that materialism is illogical without you explaining?
     
    • Like Like x 4
  12. 1137

    1137 Xepera maSet | O.S.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2011
    Messages:
    11,507
    Ratings:
    +1,703
    Religion:
    Order of the Serpent
    I've posted many asking for refutation, and many more asking for evidence of materialism.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  13. 1137

    1137 Xepera maSet | O.S.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2011
    Messages:
    11,507
    Ratings:
    +1,703
    Religion:
    Order of the Serpent

    You make a fair point, there has been evidence here and there.
     
  14. Jaiket

    Jaiket Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Messages:
    7,560
    Ratings:
    +1,385
    I'm not going to argue with that.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man.

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2009
    Messages:
    12,371
    Ratings:
    +3,336
    Religion:
    Zen Buddhism
    Why make it so complicated?

    It just means, "Without God's".
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  16. 1137

    1137 Xepera maSet | O.S.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2011
    Messages:
    11,507
    Ratings:
    +1,703
    Religion:
    Order of the Serpent
  17. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2010
    Messages:
    18,778
    Ratings:
    +5,109
    Religion:
    Agnostic
    How sad. [​IMG] Think he's serious?

    .
     
    • Funny Funny x 3
  18. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man.

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2009
    Messages:
    12,371
    Ratings:
    +3,336
    Religion:
    Zen Buddhism
    • Like Like x 2
  19. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2013
    Messages:
    11,655
    Ratings:
    +4,962
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Who on Earth needs you to take atheism seriously?
    Most likely I'd be allied with you against those folk anyway.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  20. syncretic

    syncretic Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    17,255
    Ratings:
    +1,337
    Wan't to agree, but it seems the premises are wrong.

    :shrug:
     
Loading...