We Can't Fix the World, So Now What?

[Wandering Monk]

Pick a metric, any metric. Nearly all of them are positive.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

But to "know thyself" is to go on a lonely journey into the dark recesses of the self and lay our eyes bare on our own human nature and acknowledge that we are all evil, all egotistical and we are all disgusting. It is a frightening journey.

I just can't accept that. It is far too negative, and it is certainly not how I see human nature.

Rather, I see us as essentially conflicted by the very nature of the kind of creature that we are: we are a social species (in that we depend upon others of our kind for a lot of our needs), while at the same time we have the ability to behave entirely individually, even selfishly. Bees and ants are social species, but lack the capability for individual behaviour. The worker cannot think about the consequences to the self of defending the hive (the consequence usually being the death of the worker). But we can.

I think that almost all humans (excepting those who are clinically ill, the psychopaths and so on), do know what is right and wrong in the context of our nature as a social species, but I also think that the individual, selfish part is strong enough, if given just a little leeway, to orvercome that knowledge. That's why I think it's best to understand our true nature, and then try always to integrate the conflicted parts into a whole, and we can only do that with some conscious effort.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

All the data are well sourced. For instance, undernourishment sources: References:

World Bank, World Development Indicators. Indicators | Data [accessed 25th September 2017].

FAO, IFAD, UNICEF, WFP and WHO. 2017. The State of Food Security and Nutrition in the World 2017. Building resilience for peace and food security. Rome, FAO.

FAO, IFAD, UNICEF, WFP and WHO. 2018. The State of Food Security and Nutrition in the World 2018. Building climate resilience for food security and nutrition. Rome, FAO.

The World Bank say that there has been no significant change in global poverty for the last ten years.

 

[Wandering Monk]

I just can't accept that. It is far too negative, and it is certainly not how I see human nature.

Rather, I see us as essentially conflicted by the very nature of the kind of creature that we are: we are a social species (in that we depend upon others of our kind for a lot of our needs), while at the same time we have the ability to behave entirely individually, even selfishly. Bees and ants are social species, but lack the capability for individual behaviour. The worker cannot think about the consequences to the self of defending the hive (the consequence usually being the death of the worker). But we can.

I think that almost all humans (excepting those who are clinically ill, the psychopaths and so on), do know what is right and wrong in the context of our nature as a social species, but I also think that the individual, selfish part is strong enough, if given just a little leeway, to orvercome that knowledge. That's why I think it's best to understand our true nature, and then try always to integrate the conflicted parts into a whole, and we can only do that with some conscious effort.

I agree. Most Christian assessments of human nature are deliberately negative (otherwise what do we need to be 'saved' for?) They think that non-Christians are devoid of empathy.

 

[Wandering Monk]

The World Bank say that there has been no significant change in global poverty for the last ten years.

From the World Bank website: Overview

• According to the most recent estimates, in 2015, 10 percent of the world’s population lived on less than US$1.90 a day, compared to 11 percent in 2013. That’s down from nearly 36 percent in 1990.
• Nearly 1.1 billion fewer people are living in extreme poverty than in 1990. In 2015, 736 million people lived on less than $1.90 a day, down from 1.85 billion in 1990.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

I just can't accept that. It is far too negative, and it is certainly not how I see human nature.

Rather, I see us as essentially conflicted by the very nature of the kind of creature that we are: we are a social species (in that we depend upon others of our kind for a lot of our needs), while at the same time we have the ability to behave entirely individually, even selfishly. Bees and ants are social species, but lack the capability for individual behaviour. The worker cannot think about the consequences to the self of defending the hive (the consequence usually being the death of the worker). But we can.

I think that almost all humans (excepting those who are clinically ill, the psychopaths and so on), do know what is right and wrong in the context of our nature as a social species, but I also think that the individual, selfish part is strong enough, if given just a little leeway, to orvercome that knowledge. That's why I think it's best to understand our true nature, and then try always to integrate the conflicted parts into a whole, and we can only do that with some conscious effort.

As a species we do not all represent one group. We act altruistically within our group but to those outside our group can be less altruistic, indifferent or hostile. Just like bee and ants are not altruistic towards other bee or ants outside their group. We know right and right in accordance to our grouping, our culture teaches us what our group considers right or wrong but to another group we might be wrong in what we consider right or wrong.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

I agree. Most Christian assessments of human nature are deliberately negative (otherwise what do we need to be 'saved' for?) They think that non-Christians are devoid of empathy.

I think this as more to do with idealism v. realism.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

From the World Bank website: Overview

• According to the most recent estimates, in 2015, 10 percent of the world’s population lived on less than US$1.90 a day, compared to 11 percent in 2013. That’s down from nearly 36 percent in 1990.
• Nearly 1.1 billion fewer people are living in extreme poverty than in 1990. In 2015, 736 million people lived on less than $1.90 a day, down from 1.85 billion in 1990.

Little change. The stats are fooling you if you take the value of the dollar and global inflation rate both headline and core inflation rates, there as been no significant change, while more people are making more than 1.90 a day, the rate of good that they are able to purchase remains unchanged for the last ten years. Not only that, we cannot trust an international poverty line as anything significant because nations have their own poverty lines and not all of them are the same, so living off 1.90 in Ghana might not be the same as living off 1.90 in Venezuela. And then their is the poverty shift that is occuring whereas while poor population are slightly decreasing in developing countries the poverty rate is increasing in developed countries where income inequality has actually risen. But also we have to realize that many of the graphs you are citing only take into consideration only those who are in country, not those who are refugees, asylum seekers or displaced. According to the UN there are 25 million refugees in the world, the highest rate ever seen, 41.3 displaced people and 3.5 million asylum seekers. That is 70.8 million people. 1 out of 107 people are displaced due to violence, persecution and human rights violations. If these people where a country they would the 20th largest in the world between Turkey with a population of 82,003,882 and France with a population of 66,992,000. As you think about the ongoing displaced people crisis that I have pointed out, remember that it is increasing globally, every five minutes that you count more than 150 people will be forced from their homes.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

As a species we do not all represent one group. We act altruistically within our group but to those outside our group can be less altruistic, indifferent or hostile. Just like bee and ants are not altruistic towards other bee or ants outside their group. We know right and right in accordance to our grouping, our culture teaches us what our group considers right or wrong but to another group we might be wrong in what we consider right or wrong.

And I didn't say otherwise. I said we are "dependent on other members of our species," not "all other members."

Still, it is also part of our nature to continually redefine who we consider to be members of "our group," and that membership changes continually, depending on which story line we're currently paying attention to. For example, there was a time when "our group" was confined to a few members of a relatively close family, much like you see in chimp and bonobo families today. As we developed agricultural skills, those groupings became larger, more tribal, though tribe still fought with tribe. Continuing on our development path, as we settled in one place and starting creating villages and towns, with various people specializing in various crafts and trade, the group became larger. Today, many people think nationally, though let's face it, even at your most patriotic moments, one cannot really conceive of oneself as a member of a 330 million strong group known as "Americans."

And now, with emigration happening all over the world, we are redefining our group membership even more, and now we readily include members of other races, cultures and religions into our home groups. So really, all it takes is telling yourself the right story, the right narrative. I like to think that, to some extent, my way of thinking helps me to mitigate some of whatever inherent prejudices that I may have. That's my hope, anyway.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Little change. The stats are fooling you if you take the value of the dollar and global inflation rate both headline and core inflation rates, there as been no significant change, while more people are making more than 1.90 a day, the rate of good that they are able to purchase remains unchanged for the last ten years. Not only that, we cannot trust an international poverty line as anything significant because nations have their own poverty lines and not all of them are the same, so living off 1.90 in Ghana might not be the same as living off 1.90 in Venezuela. And then their is the poverty shift that is occuring whereas while poor population are slightly decreasing in developing countries the poverty rate is increasing in developed countries where income inequality has actually risen. But also we have to realize that many of the graphs you are citing only take into consideration only those who are in country, not those who are refugees, asylum seekers or displaced. According to the UN there are 25 million refugees in the world, the highest rate ever seen, 41.3 displaced people and 3.5 million asylum seekers. That is 70.8 million people. 1 out of 107 people are displaced due to violence, persecution and human rights violations. If these people where a country they would the 20th largest in the world between Turkey with a population of 82,003,882 and France with a population of 66,992,000. As you think about the ongoing displaced people crisis that I have pointed out, remember that it is increasing globally, every five minutes that you count more than 150 people will be forced from their homes.

Global Poverty Decline Denialism

'So what do the "real data" on poverty tell us? Starting with that $1.90-per-day measurement, the level of extreme poverty fell from 42.2 percent of the world's population in 1981 to 8.6 percent in 2018. In 1981, 1.9 billion people lived on less than $1.90 per day; in 2018, the number was around 660 million.

Don't like that metric? The World Bank has adopted two additional poverty threshold measures at $3.20 and $5.50 per day per person. They too are falling:'

 

[The Reverend Bob]

Global Poverty Decline Denialism

'So what do the "real data" on poverty tell us? Starting with that $1.90-per-day measurement, the level of extreme poverty fell from 42.2 percent of the world's population in 1981 to 8.6 percent in 2018. In 1981, 1.9 billion people lived on less than $1.90 per day; in 2018, the number was around 660 million.

Don't like that metric? The World Bank has adopted two additional poverty threshold measures at $3.20 and $5.50 per day per person. They too are falling:'

You aren't getting it, the problem is with international poverty lines. It is just not an accurate barometer vs national poverty lines because nations have different economies. While making 1.90 a day in Ghana might put you above extreme poverty there, making 1.90 in Venezuela might not cut it.

And also, you didn't address the displaced persons issue. Why?

 

[Wandering Monk]

And also, you didn't address the displaced persons issue. Why?

Because it was not part of the OP.

 

[Wandering Monk]

You aren't getting it, the problem is with international poverty lines. It is just not an accurate barometer vs national poverty lines because nations have different economies. While making 1.90 a day in Ghana might put you above extreme poverty there, making 1.90 in Venezuela might not cut it.

And also, you didn't address the displaced persons issue. Why?

Did you miss the words 'global' and 'extreme poverty?' This is an aggregate. If the benchmark is a 'global' inflation adjusted value of $1.90 today and fewer people are below that in the global aggregate that is a positive trend.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

Because it was not part of the OP.

It is now.

 

[We Never Know]

Did you miss the words 'global' and 'extreme poverty?' This is an aggregate. If the benchmark is a 'global' inflation adjusted value of $1.90 today and fewer people are below that in the global aggregate that is a positive trend.

Global poverty will keep increasing as the population rises, not to mention the top percent want more for themselves and don't really care for the bottom percent.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Did you miss the words 'global' and 'extreme poverty?' This is an aggregate. If the benchmark is a 'global' inflation adjusted value of $1.90 today and fewer people are below that in the global aggregate that is a positive trend.

It is now.

Global poverty will keep increasing as the population rises, not to mention the top percent want more for themselves and don't really care for the bottom percent.

One of the major principals brought to humanity in the 1800's by Baha'u'llah was the elimination of the extremes of wealth and of poverty. A spiritual solution is needed for this dire economic problem.

The elixer as to how to save this world was also given in the 1800's.

Spirituality: The Surprising Solution to Our Economic Problems

Regards Tony

 

[We Never Know]

One of the major principals brought to humanity in the 1800's by Baha'u'llah was the elimination of the extremes of wealth and of poverty. A spiritual solution is needed for this dire economic problem.

The elixer as to how to save this world was also given in the 1800's.

Regards Tony

A spiritual solution? You mean like the many millionaire reverands that bilk $100's of millions out of the poor and then live like kings?

 

[Wandering Monk]

According to the UN there are 25 million refugees in the world, the highest rate ever seen, 41.3 displaced people and 3.5 million asylum seekers. That is 70.8 million people. 1 out of 107 people are displaced due to violence, persecution and human rights violations. If these people where a country they would the 20th largest in the world between Turkey with a population of 82,003,882 and France with a population of 66,992,000. As you think about the ongoing displaced people crisis that I have pointed out, remember that it is increasing globally, every five minutes that you count more than 150 people will be forced from their homes.

Please give me a link to the source. What time frame does this cover? Looking at this data, displaced person comparison shows four times the displacement from 1940 to 1960 than between 2000 and 2015 (the date of the article.) https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/world/historical-migrant-crisis/

 

[The Reverend Bob]

Please give me a link to the source. What time frame does this cover?

It covers 2018-2019

 

[TransmutingSoul]

A spiritual solution? You mean like the many millionaire reverands that bilk $100's of millions out of the poor and then live like kings?

I added a link

Spirituality: The Surprising Solution to Our Economic Problems

Regards Tony