We are saved by good works

[Jake Dober]

This falls under, "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Do whatever you want, profess faith in Christ if you want but it is still only when Jesus accepts your faith are you saved. It's still not on you or your works.

Faith and works are both required. I don't see works as just being a scorecard to get into heaven. There are some works that are required to enter into the kingdom of God, like baptism and a few others. Judging us by our works largely is judging us by who we have become. If you're not doing certain works now you won't fit in with people in God's kingdom. Our natures need to be changed by Christ such that we have no more desire to do evil.

 

[Muffled]

Faith and works are both required. I don't see works as just being a scorecard to get into heaven. There are some works that are required to enter into the kingdom of God, like baptism and a few others. Judging us by our works largely is judging us by who we have become. If you're not doing certain works now you won't fit in with people in God's kingdom. Our natures need to be changed by Christ such that we have no more desire to do evil.

I do not believe that is necessary and I was certainly in the Kingdom for seven years before I was baptized.

I believe repentance is something we do and I did that long before I was saved but not wanting to do evil and being able to avoid doing evil are two different things. In Jesus I can do no evil. So repentance alone and the Baptism of John could not save me.

 

[12jtartar]

Revelation 20:12 ►

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

Why does God need books? I thought he said he would forgive us our sins and forget about them?

Matthew 25
41“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, 42into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Romans 2:6
He will judge everyone according to what they have done.

James 2:17
So you see, faith by itself isn't enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless.

So we are clearly judged by our works.

Revelation 20:15 ►
Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

God is a bookkeeper

PopeADope,
I have read several of your posts and I have come to believe, that you are not looking for truth, but trying to stumble right hearted people, on the way to Salvation, just like the Pharisees and Scribes, Matthew 23:13,15,33.
Just remember, when you stumble anyone, you are stumbling someone who Jesus Died For, so you are actually singing against Jesus Christ, 1Corinthians 8:11,12, Romans 14:10-12.
On the night before Jesus died, he instituted a New Covenant, Luke 22:14-20, 1Corinthians 11:23-26. This New Covenant Superceded the Mosaic Law Covenant. All. Christians are under this New Covenant, which is a covenant based on Faith, and not Works, as the Mosaic Law Covenant was. That does not mean that good works are not required, it means that no matter how many good works you might do, you could NEVER earn Eternal life, so the free gift of eternal life is given to a person, as a Free Gift, if they show the kind of person they are by good works, Ephesians 2:8-10. James explains exactly what is meant by this, at James 2:14-18, 20, 22, 24, 26. This is not hard to understand!!!

Revelation 20:12 ►

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

Why does God need books? I thought he said he would forgive us our sins and forget about them?

Matthew 25
41“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, 42into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Romans 2:6
He will judge everyone according to what they have done.

James 2:17
So you see, faith by itself isn't enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless.

So we are clearly judged by our works.

Revelation 20:15 ►
Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

God is a bookkeeper

 

[Muffled]

Kind of funny having a judge who supposedly knows all, whom tells you to take in strangers into your house without even knowing who they are and what they're capable of doing to you.

Don't need any judge like that. Who put God in charge anyways?

I believe He put Himself in charge by dint of having all the power to do so.

 

[ronandcarol]

Obviously the one who does things out of love. However, I don't know how you could miss the contradiction in Scripture

But I would have to say, How can you not see it?
There is a judgement at the throne where the saved will be given crowns of righteousness, a crown of Glory, a crown of Life, that is where your 'saved good works' will be noticed, not at the end of time judgement where your destination is already determined. Your pompous good works on earth for 'show' will follow the 'goats' to their end place.
ronandcarol

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

No one should be totting up to see if they are saved or not, Life should not be like that.
We should be working for good anyway. not for some sort of reward.
Jesus him self made it clear what was expected of us in Matthew:25
Grace is not a reward.
It shows the relative importance of sins of omission.

 

[Muffled]

No one should be totting up to see if they are saved or not, Life should not be like that.
We should be working for good anyway. not for some sort of reward.
Jesus him self made it clear what was expected of us in Matthew:25
Grace is not a reward.
It shows the relative importance of sins of omission.

I believe what I discovered that although I wished to do well I was not able.

 

[tayla]

God is a bookkeeper

Notice the location of the books; in the spiritual realm. In my view, the spiritual realm contains stories (among other things), much as our nighttime dreams seem to be real stories unfolding. Just as each night we can have a new dream whose stories contradict last night's stories, so in the spiritual realm. The Christian story has books that God uses to judge.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I believe what I discovered that although I wished to do well I was not able.

I am sure you are doing better than if you did not try at all.

 

[12jtartar]

Romans 6:7 (ESV Strong's) 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin.

Please explain how you can take those 11 words out of 3 paragraphs and say they refer to a physical death when the rest is referring to death by baptism?


Romans 6:2 (ESV Strong's) 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

Romans 6:3-4 (ESV Strong's) 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

Romans 6:6 (ESV Strong's) 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

Romans 6:7 (ESV Strong's) 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin.

Romans 6:8 (ESV Strong's) 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.

Romans 6:11 (ESV Strong's) 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

I know witnesses believe that baptism is putting to DEATH the old worldly self, that's what verse 7 is referring to, not a physical death, death by baptism into Jesus' death.


For the life of me, I can't understand how witnesses get Romans 6:23 so screwed up.

This is what you said,

"Remember, the wages sin pays is death, Romans 6:23, so when a person dies, he has paid the ultimate price for his sin."

You don't see anything wrong with that comment, do you?

You said the wage sin PAYS is death, the you said, when a person dies he has PAID the price for sin.

If sin PAYS the wage of death, when someone dies in their sin, they have RECEIVED the wage of sin, they don't PAY the wage by their death.

djhwoodwerks,
I hope that you really want to understand what God is saying to all mankind. Will you Pleessee pray to The Almighty God for wisdom and discernment, as I do. Remember also that reasoning out of your own mind, without understanding how these Scriptures fit into the Whole Purpose of God, is called Doping Out, and you will never understand without knowing what the Bible says about
this subject in other places.
You must understand certain things or you can never be acceptable to God, Called Articles of Faith. The Bible teaches ONE message, and ALL Scripture is related to all other Scripture!
Allow me to explain from another angle, about sin and forgiveness.
Even in our earthly life we do not punish people twice for the same sin, called Double Jeopardy. When a person dies, he has paid for his sins with the most precious thing he has, his life. He then is even with God, but he still is only lying in the grave, with no hope of being resurrected. Jesus came to earth to give his life for us, this is what gives us the chance to be resurrected.
Now, here is something that most people do not understand, when people are resurrected, they will be resurrected back on this earth, into The Thousand Year Judgement Day. Each person that lives in the Judgement Day, whether resurrected or he lives through the Great Tribulation, will be required to learn, from a new set of laws that we will be given then. Nothing that a person did before counts, he must make progress toward perfection, or in time God will deem him incorrigible, and remove him ti the Lake of Fire and Sulfur.
The person who becomes a follower of Jesus footsteps, has died, in God’s eyes, so that no sin is charged to him, as long as he tries to do as good as he can. He is PERFECT FOREVER in God’s eyes, because Jesus took away sin for all true believers, John 1:29, Hebrews 10:11-17, Revelation 7:14, 20:11-15. These Scriptures are misunderstood by almost all who read them. When the Bible says that these one are judged by what Another Book says, this is instructions about how to live in the New World, and that person by the WORKS he does, after resurrection, because no one is Judged by the things he did in the other life. He and Jesus paid for those sins with their lives.
Things are not really hard to understand, if you leave the idea that death does not pay for your sins. It really makes no difference what it says at Romans 6:22,23,7, whether it means actual death or spiritual death, with Jesus, the same things apply. If you sin you die, if you don’t sin you do not die, Hebrews 10:14. At death, yours or Jesus’ ,Christians are not charged with sins. This is also written at 1John 3:4-6,9. Sinners are those who do not follow Jesus footsteps and do not try to obey, but continue in their sin without caring, Hebrew 10:26.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

You actually believe all that, don't you? It's very sad that you believe what those 7, 8 now I think, false teachers tell you what the Bible says. You don't even see your confusion in your own words, do you?

When a person dies, he has paid for his sins with the most precious thing he has, his life. He then is even with God, but he still is only lying in the grave, with no hope of being resurrected. Jesus came to earth to give his life for us, this is what gives us the chance to be resurrected.

1) Please explain why Jesus came to die for our sins, if we can die and pay for our own sins. If we pay for our sins with our own death and are then "even with God", why don't we get resurrected without Jesus' death? Does God require TWO deaths? Our death to pay for our sins, and Jesus' death to be resurrected?

2) If WE pay for our sins with our "precious life", which "makes us EVEN with God", why aren't we resurrected? What is God still holding against us?

 

[Muffled]

Notice the location of the books; in the spiritual realm. In my view, the spiritual realm contains stories (among other things), much as our nighttime dreams seem to be real stories unfolding. Just as each night we can have a new dream whose stories contradict last night's stories, so in the spiritual realm. The Christian story has books that God uses to judge.

I believe it is quite possible the book is actually our memories. There is no forgetting in the spirit except when it is in a body.

 

[Muffled]

I am sure you are doing better than if you did not try at all.

I believe any improvement was marginal at best.

 

[Nova2216]

Revelation 20:12 ►

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

Why does God need books? I thought he said he would forgive us our sins and forget about them?

Matthew 25
41“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, 42into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Romans 2:6
He will judge everyone according to what they have done.

James 2:17
So you see, faith by itself isn't enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless.

So we are clearly judged by our works.

Revelation 20:15 ►
Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

God is a bookkeeper

God uses the word "book" to relate to man. God is a spirit and needs no book. But you're on the right track if you continue to follow the verses you posted. They are clear and speak for themselves. They are easy to understand but for some they are hard to accept (Eph.3:3,4). - 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ).

Faith alone salvation is incorrect. The NT nowhere says man can be saved by faith "alone". People add the word "alone" to the text. In doing so they pervert the text (1Peter 4:11). - 11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; .

They word "believe" ("pistis" in Greek) can be correctly translated as "obey". This being true sheds new light on the salvation process.

Paul was not saved on the road to Damascus. Rather he was told by Jesus where to go and who to listen too.

B/c of (2Cor.4:7) Jesus could not tell Paul how to be saved. A man had to do the teaching (earthen vessel)(Mt 28:18-20).

Paul was told by Jesus to go to Damascus, go to the street called Straight, go to Judas' house and speak to Ananias (Ac.9). He will tell you what you "must do".

We read about the meeting in (Ac.22:16).

#1. arise,

#2. and be baptized,

#3. and wash away thy sins,

#4. calling on the name of the Lord.

Did Paul come to water baptism thinking his sins had already been forgiven or did he think his sins would be forgiven if he obeyed what Ananias taught him to do (Water baptism)?

Thanks

 

[Nova2216]

Ephesians 2:8-9 (ESV Strong's) 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

This is saving faith. It's by grace, not works. It is a gift from God.

.'

#1. Belief is a "work" according to (Jn 6:28,29).

27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."work" according to (Jn 6:28,29).

Did you "believe" before you were saved?

If so, your salvation also included a "work" according to (Jn 6:29). - "This is the work of God, that ye believe"

The Ephesians discussed in (Eph.2:1-10) were saved by grace.

Let us go to (Ac.19:1-6) and see how the Ephesians were saved.

(Ac.19:1-6) - 1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. 7 And all the men were about twelve.

The Ephesians were actually baptized in water twice.

Thanks

 

[Muffled]

I am sure you are doing better than if you did not try at all.

I believe better won't be good enough. God will have to attribute perfection to you for you to inherit eternal life.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I believe better won't be good enough. God will have to attribute perfection to you for you to inherit eternal life.

None of us achieve perfection in this life.
God's grace is not a measure of our perfection.
It is a measure of his generosity and forgiveness.
We are forgiven despite our sin.

 

[Muffled]

None of us achieve perfection in this life.
God's grace is not a measure of our perfection.
It is a measure of his generosity and forgiveness.
We are forgiven despite our sin.

Are you saying that God is unable? or unwilling?

I believe I never said that we do but only that it is attributed to us.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Are you saying that God is unable? or unwilling?

I believe I never said that we do but only that it is attributed to us.

I mean exactly what I said.
But God can achieve what ever he wants to achieve, it does not depend on us or our lack of perfection.

 

[101G]

Addewssing the OP only,

we're not save by any works of ours, but of God who gave himself for us. we wi\ork because we're saved, it's our response to God Grace in our salvation by him. he saves and we work because of his saving us.

PICJAG.