1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured We are saved by good works

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by PopeADope, Oct 6, 2017.

  1. PopeADope

    PopeADope Habemus papam

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2014
    Messages:
    14,253
    Ratings:
    +5,770
    Religion:
    Amish Taliban
    Revelation 20:12

    And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

    Why does God need books? I thought he said he would forgive us our sins and forget about them?

    Matthew 25
    41“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, 42into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
    44“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

    Romans 2:6
    He will judge everyone according to what they have done.

    James 2:17
    So you see, faith by itself isn't enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless.

    So we are clearly judged by our works.

    Revelation 20:15
    Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

    God is a bookkeeper
     
  2. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2013
    Messages:
    7,082
    Ratings:
    +3,275
    Religion:
    Agnostic-Monotheist
    I think books are symbolic references of the "opening up" one's deeds and revealing what they've done in life.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2009
    Messages:
    22,826
    Ratings:
    +8,464
    Religion:
    Zen Buddhism
    Kind of funny having a judge who supposedly knows all, whom tells you to take in strangers into your house without even knowing who they are and what they're capable of doing to you.

    Don't need any judge like that. Who put God in charge anyways?
     
  4. Mister Silver

    Mister Silver Faith's Nightmare

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2017
    Messages:
    1,834
    Ratings:
    +1,600
    Religion:
    Infidel Savant
    I think good works should be done without a personal, selfish goal in mind.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  5. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2009
    Messages:
    22,826
    Ratings:
    +8,464
    Religion:
    Zen Buddhism
    True enough.

    I don't think that's even possible with any punishment reward system that's the primary driver for doing such things in the first place.
     
  6. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    15,271
    Ratings:
    +918
    Religion:
    Christian
    I believe being judged is not the same thing as being saved.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    15,271
    Ratings:
    +918
    Religion:
    Christian
    I believe it may simply be a list of names. It reminds me of the song "when the roll is called up yonder," I'll be there.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    15,271
    Ratings:
    +918
    Religion:
    Christian
    I believe it seems the toy maker can play with his toys any way he wishes.
     
  9. Sully

    Sully Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2016
    Messages:
    54
    Ratings:
    +12
    Religion:
    Christian
    There is nothing we can do to earn our way to heaven. In Isiah 64.6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags. We are not saved by good works...but by faith alone; however, good works indicate that one is in Christ. For example, I think there are those who speak "Christian" but are not saved. If one surrenders one's life to Christ it is impossible to continue to live in a worldly way. It doesn't mean you are perfect and won't backslide...but you will mourn your sins and continue to strive after righteousness. Our Lord can see our heart...and even those who are performing good deeds may only be doing so to garner the acclaim from the world...much as the Sanhedrin would pray to be in the sight of man.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  10. PopeADope

    PopeADope Habemus papam

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2014
    Messages:
    14,253
    Ratings:
    +5,770
    Religion:
    Amish Taliban
    I've just shown you where in scripture it says we are judged and saved by our works, and that faith without works is dead.

    This is the problem with scripture, two people can wind up with opposite beliefs and both of them have scripture to back it up... Why does the bible contradict itself?
     
  11. Sully

    Sully Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2016
    Messages:
    54
    Ratings:
    +12
    Religion:
    Christian
    I don't see the contradiction...one should see the fruit of ones faith through works but it is not what saves you. Humans are addicted to working their way to salvation...that is not possible...works are a result of faith...I think the best analogy is that of a parent and child...which would a parent prefer...a child doing a chore because they are afraid of being punished or a child performing a chore because he or she loves and respects the parent?
     
    • Like Like x 2
  12. PopeADope

    PopeADope Habemus papam

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2014
    Messages:
    14,253
    Ratings:
    +5,770
    Religion:
    Amish Taliban
    Obviously the one who does things out of love. However, I don't know how you could miss the contradiction in Scripture
     
  13. Sully

    Sully Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2016
    Messages:
    54
    Ratings:
    +12
    Religion:
    Christian

    I think one must look at things in context. The early Christians were largely Jews that believed Jesus was the Jewish Messiah. Many believed that they still had to follow all of the Jewish Mosaic Laws in order to get to heaven. Paul was attempting to clarify the new covenant (prophesized in Jeremiah 31:31-34) that Christ was the ultimate sacrifice. When Jesus was sacrificed on Passover (while the priests were sacrificing hundreds of lambs to atone for the people's sins) Jesus blood was shed and flowed into the Brook of Kidron where the blood of all of the Temple's lamb sacrifices flowed into. The Lamb of God (the perfect sacrifice) cleansed us of our sins. We need only to have faith in this perfect act of substitutionary atonement because there is nothing we can do beyond this act of love. Paul in Ephesians 2:8-12 states: Salvation is by grace through faith alone, not as a result of good works, so that God alone gets the glory. In James 2:14-22 the comment that faith without works is dead speaks of how being in Christ is manifested through acts of love (i.e., works).
     
  14. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2015
    Messages:
    3,058
    Ratings:
    +776
    Religion:
    Christian
    James 2:17 refers to faith among humans, if you read verse 18, you would see that.

    James 2:18 (ESV Strong's) 18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

    If someone says they have faith, but don't have the works to back it up, their faith is dead to those they tell.

    James 2:15-17 (ESV Strong's) 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

    Ephesians 2:8-9 (ESV Strong's) 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

    This is saving faith. It's by grace, not works. It is a gift from God.

    That's what I keep telling witnesses, it's free, no works required! Then I ask them, 'what would you do if come judgment day, Jesus says, I'm sorry, you're a goat, you missed it by one door.'
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. PopeADope

    PopeADope Habemus papam

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2014
    Messages:
    14,253
    Ratings:
    +5,770
    Religion:
    Amish Taliban
    Matthew 25
    41“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, 42into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
    44“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


    They were damned because of the good works they failed to do!
     
  16. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

    Joined:
    May 1, 2017
    Messages:
    2,515
    Ratings:
    +1,005
    Religion:
    No Religion. I Sense The Higher Power.
    since actions stem from intent, and desire, I'd say we are saved by the quality of our heart's justice.

    that saves quadriplegics, who are limited in their ability to act.
     
  17. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2017
    Messages:
    1,963
    Ratings:
    +466
    Religion:
    Christian gnosis
    Hmm. I threw Revelations out many years ago (as spiritual knowledge). There is no understanding of it, and was meant for those of Domitian's persecution. It aligns with no message of the gospel message or Paul. It is a fear motivator as the OT god used fear as a motivation. A definite repudiation of 1 John 4:18 as well as other gospel and Paul messages. It has driven as many away from understanding as it has drawn others by fear.

    It means as much as Nostradamus does, which to me isn't much.
     
  18. 12jtartar

    12jtartar Active Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2015
    Messages:
    608
    Ratings:
    +112
    Religion:
    Christian
    PopeADope,
    You have made several statements, that seem correct, but a little discernment shows that they lack a little, to be completely accurate.
    At Revelation 20:12, the Bible is recording what will happen after the other, another book was opened. This book is about the things recorded after all are in The Judgement Day of 1,000 years, Revelation 20:4-7. During the Thousand year Judgement Day, all who are there, on earth, will grow toward perfection, they will be judged by what they do, as to their being granted Eternal Life after the final test, at Revelation 20:6-9. Consider Revelation 20:5 which says that they will not LIVE until the 1,000 years are ended. That means, after the final test, all the ones who remain faithful to God will then be granted Eternal life.
    The ones that are mentioned at Revelation 20:4-6, are ones who are The 144,000 mentioned several times in Revelation. Notice that these ones cannot be affected by the Second Death, which is the Lake of Fire and Sulfur, a symbol for everlasting death, Revelation 2:11, 20:6. This is because these are a New Creation, resurrected as Spirits, and Kings and Priests, 1Corinthians 15:50-54, 2Corinthians 5:17, Galatians 6:15,16, Revelation 5:9,10, 14:1-5, 20:3-6. These will rule in heaven with Jesus, Romans 8:17. All the people who have been resurrected, and those who live through the Great Tribulation, will live on earth. With Eternal Life ahead, if they remain faithful.
    Now, we know that people are only Judged by what they do in that new system, because Jesus died to take away sins of the former life, that is the reason they could be resurrected, and live again, Romans 6:7, Matthew 20:28, John 1:29, 3:15-18, 1Timothy 2:3-5.
    Remember, the wages sin pays is death, Romans 6:23, so when a person dies, he has paid the ultimate price for his sin. He is not punished again for his sins, of his past life, Romans 6:7.
     
  19. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2015
    Messages:
    3,058
    Ratings:
    +776
    Religion:
    Christian
    You have made several statements, that seem correct, but a lot of discernment shows they lack a lot to be correct!

    The, "other book" that was opened is the book of life, not a book of things recorded during judgment day. It's a simple case of cherry picking verses to fit what you need. Verse 15 says,

    Revelation 20:15 (ESV Strong's) And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

    And Rev 13:7-8 tells us that the names in the book of life were written before the foundation of the world.

    Revelation 13:7-8 (ESV Strong's) 7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, 8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.


    Revelation 20:4 (ESV Strong's) 4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

    So, that means that all the rank and file witnesses will worship the beast and his image, and receive the mark on their hands and foreheads? If John saw the souls of the those who didn't worship the beast, and they were only the 144,000, then the rest of the witnesses worshiped the beast and took the mark.


    Aren't spirits already a creation? What does "NEW creation" mean to you? To me, it means something that has never existed before, something that hasn't been created yet.
     
  20. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2015
    Messages:
    3,058
    Ratings:
    +776
    Religion:
    Christian
    Read verses 13-16 and you will see how deceived your teachers have you.


    Have you put to death the deeds of the body? Did you do it by the Spirit of God, or by your "slave"?

    Romans 8:13 (ESV Strong's) 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.


    Are YOU led by the Spirit of God, or by your "slave"? Do YOU call God Father? Are you led by the Spirit of God, but refuse adoption so you can live as a subject in the kingdom?

    Romans 8:14-15 (ESV Strong's) 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”


    If you are led by the Spirit of God, and not by your "slave", then YOU are a son of God, a child of God, an heir of God and a fellow heir with Christ.

    Romans 8:16-17 (ESV Strong's) The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

    I know rank and file witnesses claim God is their Father. If God is YOUR Father, how can YOU not be heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ? How can YOU call God Father and not be His child?

    ALL, who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God, not everyone who ever lived. Everyone who is led by the Spirit RECEIVES the Spirit of adoption as sons.

    John 1:12-13 (ESV Strong's) 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

    If everyone who ever lived are children of God, why did Jesus give those who received Him and believed in Him, the "right to BECOME children of God"?

    "not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."
     
Loading...