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Water, weather and climate.

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Water is key to the earth being warm and inhabitable. I am concerned that the current climate models, that fixate on a few green house gases, but does not also stress the importance of water, is half baked and misleading.

For example, water is the only natural substance on earth that exist in all three phases at the same time; gas, liquid and solid. Green house gases, besides water, are one trick ponies; only gases. They lack all the extra features of water, by also being a liquid and a solid. These extra phases bring extra things to the climate table. Water vapor absorbs more heat over a wider spectrum than does CO2. It there was no water in the atmosphere, the earth would freeze, with only CO2, N2 and O2. Clouds, which are part gas and part liquid reverse this, helping cool the solar heating.

For example, hurricanes, which are very powerful weather events, are connected to the phase change of water from gas to liquid. Gaseous water takes up about 1000 time's more volume than does liquid water. When lot of water vapor; gas, condenses into rain; liquid, a vacuum is created in the local atmosphere and a low pressure area forms. This low pressure can then pull more moist air into the atmospheric void, for a self feeding storm.

CO2 is stuck as a gas and is not part of these daily weather dynamics. All the high and low pressure systems in the earth's weather are connect to liquid to gas and gas to liquid phase transitions of water. Cloud, which are the bridge for the transition of water vapor to liquid water, can block the sun and bring down cool water and ice to help offset and cool the earth; hail in the summer.

In a 100-year period, a water molecule spends 98 years in the ocean, 20 months as ice, about 2 weeks in lakes and rivers, and less than a week in the atmosphere. Each day the sun evaporates 1,000,000,000,000 (a trillion) tons of water.

One of the key solid state tricks of water, that also allows our planet not to become an ice ball, is the unique property of solid water expanding when it freezes. This is the most commonly known anomaly of water, that we all have seen; ice cubes in a drink. Most materials in the universe contract when they freeze into a solid. What this expanding of freezing water brings to the table, is it prevents the oceans from freezing solid, preventing the earth from becoming a cold ice ball.

If water contracted when it froze, like most materials, as the early winter water chilled, the cold water would sink downward by convection as warmer water rose up by convection. Once the surface water froze, it too would sink, exposing more liquid water to the surface cold, while snowing down ice, sealing the bottom, that would kill the fish. Over time, the snow and ice on the bottom of the water, would accumulate to where the summers would not be able to melt it, since the warm water of summer would float on the surface and not sink.

However, since water will expand when it freezes, you get an igloo affect that keeps the cold on the surface so it can be reversed by summer. Water has a density maximum at 4C. This is another anomaly of water. At 4C water will expand, whether you chill it or heat it at 4C, since 4C is the maximum density. In the winter, we will also get an initial cold water convection, until the surface water drops to below 4C. The even older 3C water will want to float on the 4C water, ands then freeze to becomes a solid that floats as ice, glaciers and ice bergs. This igloo affect keeps the bulk oceans always above freezing, with the summer heat able to catch up and melt the cold stored in the surface ice.

An important colligative property of water is connected to freeing point depression, which occurs in the salty oceans. The 4C is for pure water, with this number lower in the oceans, than in fresh water lakes. The oceans shifts the density maximum curve downward; lower temperature, allowing the cold to have more affect. However, water still expands, with the igloo affect still active.

When the glaciers melt and fresh water is added to the oceans, since fresh water is lighter; no salt, The freeing point depression reverses causing the igloo affect to occur sooner, so the oceans can warm a few degrees over time. We may be able to cool the earth simply by mixing the surface ocean water from the glacier melt, with the denser deeper ocean water, to reverse the freezing point depression on the surface. This will not require any major change to culture other than large pumps for recirculation and mixing.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Water is key to the earth being warm and inhabitable. I am concerned that the current climate models, that fixate on a few green house gases, but does not also stress the importance of water, is half baked and misleading.

For example, water is the only natural substance on earth that exist in all three phases at the same time; gas, liquid and solid. Green house gases, besides water, are one trick ponies; only gases. They lack all the extra features of water, by also being a liquid and a solid. These extra phases bring extra things to the climate table. Water vapor absorbs more heat over a wider spectrum than does CO2. It there was no water in the atmosphere, the earth would freeze, with only CO2, N2 and O2. Clouds, which are part gas and part liquid reverse this, helping cool the solar heating.
Which models do you refer to? For all I know the current models all include water vapour in their calculation as it is the most potent greenhouse gas (by overall mass). But since no more water gets added to the atmosphere, the only question is how much more water will vaporise in a warmer climate. Other gases, especially CO2 have more impact on the change in heat capturing.
And not all greenhouse gases exist only in gaseous form. E.g. methane exists as solid hydrate in permafrost and under the ocean - and can become quite a problem when it's released.
 

The Hammer

Wodanson
Premium Member
"Some people mistakenly believe water vapor is the main driver of Earth’s current warming. But increased water vapor doesn’t cause global warming. Instead, it’s a consequence of it. Increased water vapor in the atmosphere amplifies the warming caused by other greenhouse gases."

Steamy Relationships: How Atmospheric Water Vapor Amplifies Earth's Greenhouse Effect – Climate Change: Vital Signs of the Planet.

"It works like this: As greenhouse gases like carbon dioxide and methane increase, Earth’s temperature rises in response. This increases evaporation from both water and land areas. Because warmer air holds more moisture, its concentration of water vapor increases. Specifically, this happens because water vapor does not condense and precipitate out of the atmosphere as easily at higher temperatures. The water vapor then absorbs heat radiated from Earth and prevents it from escaping out to space. This further warms the atmosphere, resulting in even more water vapor in the atmosphere. This is what scientists call a "positive feedback loop." Scientists estimate this effect more than doubles the warming that would happen due to increasing carbon dioxide alone."
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
"Some people mistakenly believe water vapor is the main driver of Earth’s current warming. But increased water vapor doesn’t cause global warming. Instead, it’s a consequence of it. Increased water vapor in the atmosphere amplifies the warming caused by other greenhouse gases."

Steamy Relationships: How Atmospheric Water Vapor Amplifies Earth's Greenhouse Effect – Climate Change: Vital Signs of the Planet.

"It works like this: As greenhouse gases like carbon dioxide and methane increase, Earth’s temperature rises in response. This increases evaporation from both water and land areas. Because warmer air holds more moisture, its concentration of water vapor increases. Specifically, this happens because water vapor does not condense and precipitate out of the atmosphere as easily at higher temperatures. The water vapor then absorbs heat radiated from Earth and prevents it from escaping out to space. This further warms the atmosphere, resulting in even more water vapor in the atmosphere. This is what scientists call a "positive feedback loop." Scientists estimate this effect more than doubles the warming that would happen due to increasing carbon dioxide alone."
I think Carl Sagan once said to effect if you want a runaway greenhouse environment real fast, water vapor is a means to do it.
 

The Hammer

Wodanson
Premium Member
I think Carl Sagan once said to effect if you want a runaway greenhouse environment real fast, water vapor is a means to do it.

We are already there. Water vapor and all.

Where do the increased storm strengths come from? A Storm is just a movement of water through the air. Stronger, heavier, more frequent storms is because there is more water vapor going airborne.

And now we get to see the full destructive force of one aspect of Thor.

We were warned. We didn't listen.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Which models do you refer to? For all I know the current models all include water vapour in their calculation as it is the most potent greenhouse gas (by overall mass). But since no more water gets added to the atmosphere, the only question is how much more water will vaporise in a warmer climate. Other gases, especially CO2 have more impact on the change in heat capturing.
And not all greenhouse gases exist only in gaseous form. E.g. methane exists as solid hydrate in permafrost and under the ocean - and can become quite a problem when it's released.

Water, as clouds, impacts heat flow in both directions, to and from earth. Clouds can block solar heating, making the surface heat up slower or less. It is not until the sun burns off the morning fog; water, that the surface starts to heat up. rapidly. At night, clouds prevent surface heat from radiating into space. Frost is more likely to form on a clear night without clouds.

CO2 acts the same way being a two way heat valve, blocking heat from both the earth and the sun. The sun give off a lot of IR radiation within the capture zone of CO2. Burning off fog allows the earth to increase temperature in degree C per minute. CO2 is much gentler, talking a hundred years for one degree even under extreme CO2 release.

Roughly 49% of solar radiation is infrared between 700nm-1mm; about 7% is from ultra-violet between 100-400mm; less than 1% of solar radiation is emitted as x-rays, gamma rays and radio waves.

A higher earth surface temperature, increases the water vapor content in the atmosphere. This means more clouds and therefore more two way moderation by the water. Rain begins in the atmosphere, where the air is cooler, bringing a cooling affect to the surface.

This extra rain, impacts another key part of the earth's water based climate moderation affect; plant life. Plant life absorbs and fixes CO2 and water via photosynthesis. The more CO2 there is in the atmosphere, the higher the potential for plants to grow; capture more CO2. While more plants means more transpiration, which is gives off water into the atmosphere.

One of the most consistent effects of elevated atmospheric CO2 on plants is an increase in the rate of photosynthetic carbon fixation by leaves. Across a range of FACE experiments, with a variety of plant species, growth of plants at elevated CO2 concentrations of 475–600 ppm increases leaf photosynthetic rates by an average of 40% (Ainsworth & Rogers 2007).
Using CO2 to enhance plant growth in greenhouses is common practice. Greenhouse gases have more than one use in any greenhouse.

When we sweat, the water that is given off absorbs heat through the phase change of the liquid water to water vapor; evaporation. If you go to Disney World in the summer, they use misters near the long lines in the sun. The water evaporation cools the crowds. This absorption of heat also occur during plant transpiration, which makes the local forest cooler than the nearby city; concrete jungle. When we defoliate, we lose the cooling affect of plants via much less water transpiration. As the world develops and more and more cities appear, the earth warms due to losing the counter affect of plant transpiration and water.

Forest fires play a major role in surface heat. We loose plant transpiration and the rate of CO2 fixation, while also releasing the plant captured CO2. However, the higher CO2 will feedback to the existing plants to speed up regrowth.

Which models do you refer to? For all I know the current models all include water vapour in their calculation as it is the most potent greenhouse gas (by overall mass). But since no more water gets added to the atmosphere, the only question is how much more water will vaporise in a warmer climate. Other gases, especially CO2 have more impact on the change in heat capturing.
And not all greenhouse gases exist only in gaseous form. E.g. methane exists as solid hydrate in permafrost and under the ocean - and can become quite a problem when it's released.

Methane hydrate is a water/methane phase that allows water to bind methane. Water can also bind CO2 to form carbonic acid. These are other ways water can moderate climate; bind greenhouse gases. If both cases of methane and CO2, as the water temperature rises, less methane and CO2 can be absorbed and can even start to release as greenhouse gases.

The heating can be caused by the release of mantle heat, along the tectonic boundaries under the ocean. Recently as major undersea volcano erupted and created a steam plume that increased the water content in the atmosphere. This led to the huge rain storms and summer heat this past summer.

Meanwhile, Tonga expelled a total of 146m tonnes of water, raising the water vapour content of the stratosphere by 10–15%.

Tonga undersea volcano created most intense lightning storm ever recorded

Another affect of the Tonga volcano was it set a record in terms of most lightning flashes even recorded for one event. About 192,000 lightning flashes were seen from space, with much of this lightning connected to the massive amount of water/steam pushed into the atmosphere. The volcano erupted 500 feet below the ocean and lifted water into the stratosphere. That area would have also lost any hydrated or fixed CO2 and Methane back into the atmosphere due to the geothermal heating.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Using CO2 to enhance plant growth in greenhouses is common practice. Greenhouse gases have more than one use in any greenhouse.
CO2 enhances plant growth in greenhouses, everything else kept equal. But in the biosphere not everything keeps equal. The higher temperatures due to increased CO2 lead to more droughts and plants reduce their metabolism during heat stress. I.e. climate scientists don't calculate with a negative feedback from plant growth.
 
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