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Watchtower: Jesus is not "a god"!

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Alpha and Omega is a title used only for the Father [YHWH].

First and Last however, meaning 'only' may be used for many persons and things. E.g., Adam is the first and last person made from the dust of the earth. I'm sure you can see how Eve was first and last in some respect.

Nope - I already showed you in Revelation 22:12-13 where he said he was the Alpha and Omega. And also in Revelation 1:11-18 ( The Father had manifested himself in flesh, and after he finished the job raised his body up a glorified spiritual body.)

With your application of being the first and the last, explain what he meant in Revelation 22:12-18

The one who said he was the Alpha and Omega in verse 11, said he was the one that liveth, and was dead, and behold I am alive forever more, in verse 18. I know who that is - do you?
 
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tigger2

Active Member
Nope - I already showed you in Revelation 22:12-13 where he said he was the Alpha and Omega. And also in Revelation 1:11-18 ( The Father had manifested himself in flesh, and after he finished the job raised his body up a glorified spiritual body.)

With your application of being the first and the last, explain what he meant in Revelation 22:12-18

The one who said he was the Alpha and Omega in verse 11, said he was the one that liveth, and was dead, and behold I am alive forever more, in verse 18. I know who that is - do you?


There are only three places in the entire Bible where the title “Alpha and Omega” is used: Rev. 1:8; Rev. 21:6; Rev. 22:13. “Alpha and Omega” as found at Rev. 1:11 in the KJV and NKJV is recognized as spurious by most modern Bible scholars:

"Virtually all modern translations do not include in Rev 1:11 the following words that are in the KJV version of that verse:

"Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and,

"This wording at the beginning of the KJV's version of Rev. 1:11 is not found in virtually any ancient texts, nor is it mentioned, even as a footnote, in any modern translation or in Bruce Metzger's definitive A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, Second Edition, New York: United Bible Societies, 1994."

Some attempt to prove their “Jehovah is Jesus” idea by pointing to Rev. 1:8 where God is clearly called “Alpha and Omega” and then saying that Jesus claims the same title at Rev. 22:13. They point to Rev. 22:16 as proof that it is Jesus who is claiming to be the Alpha and Omega of verse 13. Since Jehovah is clearly Alpha and Omega (Rev. 1:8), they say, and Jesus is Alpha and Omega (Rev. 22:13), then Jesus IS Jehovah.

As you probably know, the original NT Greek Bible writers didn’t use any punctuation or capitalization and frequently ran the words of one speaker right into those of another speaker without any warning or indication. Young’s Analytical Concordance to the Bible, for example, warns Bible readers:

“The language of the MESSENGER frequently glides into that of the SENDER ...” and, “what a SERVANT says or does is ascribed to the MASTER.” - “Hints and Helps to Bible Interpretation” - Preface.

Is Jesus ‘Alpha and Omega’ in Rev. 22?

Now look at Rev. 22:8-16. John is identified as the speaker in 22:8. The angel speaks in verse 9). The angel apparently continues speaking in verse 10). The angel may be still speaking in verse 11) --- or it could be John or even someone else (as implied in verse 10 in the NAB, 1970 ed.).

Now is the angel still speaking in verse 12) or is it God, or is it Jesus, or even John? There is simply no way of telling who the speaker is from any of the early Bible manuscripts. It’s entirely a matter of translator’s choice. Some translators have decided it is the angel who continues to speak, and they punctuate it accordingly. So the NASB, JB, and NJB use quotation marks to show that these are all words spoken by the angel.

However, the NKJV, NEB, REB, RSV, and NRSV show by their use of quotation marks that someone else is now speaking in verse 12. Most Bibles indicate that the person who spoke verse 12 (whether God, angel, Jesus, or John) also spoke verse 13 (“I am Alpha and Omega”).

Now the big question is: Is it clear that the speaker of verses 12 and 13 continues to speak? Some Bibles indicate this. But other respected trinitarian translations do not!

The ESV; ISV; LEB; MEV; MOUNCE; NAB (2010 ed.); NASB; NEB; NKJV; NLT; NRSV; REB; RSV; 21st Century King James Version; TEV; and WE show (by quotation marks and indenting) that Rev. 22:14 and 15 are not the words of the speaker of verses 12 and 13 but are John’s words. (The Jerusalem Bible; the NJB; and Moffatt show us that the angel spoke all the words from verse 10 through verse 15.) Then they show Jesus as a new speaker beginning to speak in verse 16.

So, if you must insist that the person speaking just before verse 16 is the same person who is speaking in verse 16, then, according to the trinitarian ESV; ISV; LEB; MEV; MOUNCE; NAB (2010 ed.); NASB; NEB; NKJV; NLT; NRSV; REB; RSV; 21st Century King James Version, TEV; and WE , you are saying John is Jesus!!! (According to the JB and NJB you would be insisting that the angel is Jesus!)

And, just as the use of “I, John” indicated a new speaker in Revelation 1:9, so does the only other such usage in that same book. Yes, Rev. 22:16 - “I, Jesus” also introduces a new speaker. This also means, of course, that the previous statement (“I am the Alpha and Omega”) was made by someone else!

Even the KJV translators have shown by their use of the word “his” in verse 14 that they didn’t mean that Jesus was the same speaker as the Alpha and Omega. The speaker of verse 13 is Almighty God. The comment in verse 14 of these Bibles (as literally translated from the Received Text) explains the importance of doing “His Commandments” (not “My Commandments”)! Therefore the speaker of verse 14 is obviously not God as clearly stated by those Bibles which were translated from the Received Text, e.g., KJV; NKJV; KJIIV; MKJV; Young’s Literal Translation; Webster Bible(by Noah Webster); Revised Webster Bible; and Lamsa’s translation (Holy Bible From the Ancient Eastern Text).

So we can easily see that there is no reason to say Jesus spoke the words recorded at Rev. 22:13 (or the above-named trinitarian Bibles would surely have so translated it!) and, in fact, the context really identifies the speaker as being the same person who spoke at Rev. 1:8, God Almighty, Jehovah, the Father.

The only other use of the title “Alpha and Omega” confirms this understanding.

“And He who sits on the throne said, ‘Behold, I am making all things new.’ .... And He said to me, ‘It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. .... He who overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.’” - Rev. 21:5-7, NASB.

This particular "Jesus is God" proof is a poor one indeed! You can't even get most respected Trinitarian scholars to agree with it!

Why do you suppose this old 'proof' was concocted in the first place, and why does it still persist today?
 
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Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Hi Tigger2;

I have a question regarding your claim that different persons may be speaking in various verses in revelations chapt 22. .


REGARDING VERSE 10 (SECOND PHRASE) THROUGH VERSE 15 AND CHANGE OF SPEAKERS

Are you claiming that there is a change of speakers from verse 10 (second phrase) through verse 15?
If so, where is the transition from one person to another and on what data and reasoning are you personally using to support this theory?

Thanks for this information in advance.

Clear.
εισετωνεω
 

tigger2

Active Member
The ESV; ISV; LEB; MEV; MOUNCE; NAB (2010 ed.); NASB; NEB; NKJV; NLT; NRSV; REB; RSV; 21st Century King James Version; TEV; and WE show (by quotation marks and indenting) that Rev. 22:14 and 15 are not the words of the speaker of verses 12 and 13 but are John’s words. (The Jerusalem Bible; the NJB; and Moffatt show us that the angel spoke all the words from verse 10 through verse 15.) Then they show Jesus as a new speaker beginning to speak in verse 16.

So, if you must insist that the person speaking just before verse 16 is the same person who is speaking in verse 16, then, according to the trinitarian ESV; ISV; LEB; MEV; MOUNCE; NAB (2010 ed.); NASB; NEB; NKJV; NLT; NRSV; REB; RSV; 21st Century King James Version, TEV; and WE, you are saying John is Jesus!!! (According to the JB and NJB you would be insisting that the angel is Jesus!)

The Trinitarian-translated Bibles cited above are the ones who are saying (by use of quotation marks) that there is a change of speakers between verses 10 -15. The exceptions, as noted above, are JB; NJB; and Moffatt whose quotation marks indicate that the angel spoke everything from verse 10 - 15.

Do you think I should explain the use and non-use of quotation marks in English for others here?

http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2009/09/ao-speaker-confusion.html
 
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tigger2

Active Member
An example of proper quotation mark usage as found in the NASB


I have colored the closing quotation marks red.


John, as the author, does not have quotation marks around his words.

Rule 9. When quoted material runs more than one paragraph, start each new paragraph with opening quotation marks, but do not use closing quotation marks until the end of the passage.


NASB, Rev. 22:8-16


8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things.


9 But he said to me, Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.

The Final Message

10 And he [the angel] said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.


11 Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.


12Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.


13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.


14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.


15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.


16I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.
 
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Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
But of course all this is far too much to expect a JW to be able to follow and agree to when a JW is blind to the meaning of much simpler texts such as John 1:3 which shows that the Word was not created.

Don’t belittle. It makes your argument look weak.

Have you even studied the grammatical structure of John 1:3?

One word there, is “chóris”, translated in most Trinitarian bibles as “without”. But look at its main usage here...
Strong's Greek: 5565. χωρίς (chóris) -- separately, separate from

And egeneto, along with another form of it, is used three times.
It indicates Jesus “came into being.”

You know, we could really go ‘round and ‘round on doctrine, but Jesus said the way to identify His followers is, not so much by what they teach, but by how they act, how they treat others....John 13:34-35; Matthew 5:44.

Member religions of Christendom (which, BTW, are mostly Trinitarian) have an atrocious reputation in this regard! They’ve valued nationalism, in whatever country they reside, as more important than their spiritual brotherhood....killing their own brothers-in-Christ, just because of some man-made geographic boundaries.
Supporting the world in its wars....a world which Jesus said to be no part of....reveals their disobedience to Christ and God.
Titus 1:16; 1 John 3:10-15. James 4:4

Christendom has no significant truth!
I suppose you believe Hellfire?
 
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TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
An example of proper quotation mark usage as found in the NASB


I have colored the closing quotation marks red.


John, as the author, does not have quotation marks around his words.

Rule 9. When quoted material runs more than one paragraph, start each new paragraph with opening quotation marks, but do not use closing quotation marks until the end of the passage.


NASB, Rev. 22:8-16


8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things.


9 But he said to me, Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.

The Final Message

10 And he [the angel] said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.


11 Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.


12Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.


13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.


14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.


15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.


16I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.

Of course the angel is delivering the message. That doesn't change any of the points I made.

The angel was delivering the message he was sent to deliver. It was clearly being said thru the angel's message, that he (the one coming quickly) was the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Revelation 22:12-13

Revelation 22:16 lets you know who sent his angel. Just a few verses earlier it said it was God who sent his angel. Revelation 22:6 ( More proof he is the Almighty)

Surely you don't think the angel was speaking for, or about himself in Revelation 22:12-13 do you?
 
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TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
I would like to make a few points here.....because this is a very poor interpretation of that scripture IMO. Have you really examined Philippians 2:5-11?

From the NET...
"5 You should have the same attitude toward one another that Christ Jesus had,

6 who though he existed in the form of God did not regard equality with God
as something to be grasped,"


What does it mean to exist in God's "form"? What "form" does a spirit being have?
"God is a spirit", so his son also existed in that form before his human life on earth. But even though he was a perfect human (having no sinful nature) he never put himself above his spiritual brothers, but was a humble servant of his God who never once put himself on the same level as his Father in the eyes of his disciples. By his miraculous powers mere humans could have treated him as a god, but he would have none of that.

"7 but emptied himself by taking on the form of a slave, by looking like other men, and by sharing in human nature.
8 He humbled himself, by becoming obedient to the point of death—even death on a cross! [stauros]"


What does it mean to 'empty oneself'? As a spirit being, which is a superior life form, higher than humans (even perfect ones as Adam was before his defection) to volunteer to become a lower creature (akin to us perhaps becoming a dog or a cat) took a great deal of humility. To go from being a powerful spirit, the second highest personage in the Universe, to becoming a mortal human was a big demotion, but one he willingly undertook because of God's love for his human children whom the pre-human Jesus had helped to create. (John 3:16; Colossians 1:15-17) He knew that his mission would end in death.

Who is Jesus obedient to? The one who sent him. He did not send himself.

To understand Jesus' death means that we comprehend the ransom, and why Jesus is called a "redeemer". He had to be fully human to do that.....there is no scripture that supports a half man/half God scenario. This concept is entirely absent from God's word.

If Jesus was God, then as an immortal, he could not be put to death. Immortals cannot die. Neither humans nor angels were created immortal. God alone possessed immortality in the beginning.....even the son did not have it, which is why he could offer his life on our behalf. But after he had completed his mission, he was granted that status as a reward for his faithful service.

"9 As a result God highly exalted him and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow—in heaven and on earth and under the earth


What is the name that is highly exalted? It says "the name of Jesus" not YHWH...(both in heaven and on earth.) A name is also representative of one's reputation.....Jesus now gained a "name" that is above all others because he took on a role that no one else could be trusted to undertake. His name has been exalted, elevated in the eyes of all as God's most trusted and reliable son....the savior of the human race.

"11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father."

Again his name is confessed, not to bring glory to the son but to glorify the Father.

You need to read scripture but you also have to understand it. This passage is often touted as pro-trinitarian, but it is exactly the opposite upon closer examination.


YHWH is the name above all names. The Messiah's true name is YHWSH (not Jesus) and many others have been given that name - such as the one we call Joshua, the successor to Moses. That has been a common name given to Jewish men. Surely you don't think they all have the name above all names do you?

That verse is saying every tongue will confess that YHWSH ( the messiah's true Hebrew name) is YHWH.

He inherited the name above all names. Hebrews 1:4 Notice they only started calling him "Lord Jesus" after the resurrection. (Our versions have replaced YHWH with Lord, and YHWSH with Jesus.)
 
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Brian2

Veteran Member
An example of proper quotation mark usage as found in the NASB

I have colored the closing quotation marks
red.
John, as the author, does not have quotation marks around his words.
Rule 9. When quoted material runs more than one paragraph, start each new paragraph with opening quotation marks, but do not use closing quotation marks until the end of the passage.

NASB, Rev. 22:8-16
8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9 But he said to me, Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.

The Final Message

10 And he [the angel] said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.
11 Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.
12Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.
14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.
16I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.

12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.”
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

The one who is coming soon is identified as Jesus. I presume that means He is also the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
Jesus does identify Himself as the First and the Last at Rev 1:12 after all.
Alpha and Omega, First and Last, Beginning and End all seem to be ways of saying the same thing. If someone is the First and Last, He would also be the Alpha and Omega.
Jesus is the one who is coming quickly so Jesus is the Alpha and Omega in Rev 22 and so in all the other places in Revelations where the terms are used. The Watch Tower tries to hide the fact that Rev 22:12 is speaking of Jesus because the WT does not want the Alpha and Omega of Rev 1:8 to be identified as Jesus and so point to Jesus as Almighty God the one who is coming, both in Rev 22 and at Rev 1:8.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Some questions:

Exactly who was speaking from the heavens at Jesus’ baptism? Who was Jesus praying to, all those many times? And in one prayer, recorded in John 17, how could Jesus speak of his former existence, saying “And now Father, glorify me with the glory I had beside you, before the world was”? Why would Jesus pray “Let, not my will, but yours take place”? How did the Father ‘forsake’ him right before he died? And who resurrected him, since Jesus was dead, and “the dead know nothing”(Ecclesiastes 9:5)? How could Jesus say, “I’m going my way to the Father,” if the Father was already in him?

And on & on it goes....

Yes he was dead. But he had said destroy this temple and in 3 days I will raise it up. The eternal Spirit dwelling in that body was speaking. And the eternal Spirit did raise up the body a glorified spiritual body. And he ascended and took the throne to reign forever.

As far as praying: He had taken on a fleshly body that was weak like ours. The flesh was crying out to the Spirit for strength to overcome.

The flesh had a different will than the Spirit. The flesh didn't want to suffer. No flesh would want to suffer like that.

As far as the glory question - the same as how he was slain before the foundation of the world. Revelation 13:8 Even though we know he wasn't actually slain until the time came that it happened. (Answer: It was in the mind and the plan of God.)
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Alpha and Omega is a title used only for the Father [YHWH].

First and Last however, meaning 'only' may be used for many persons and things. E.g., Adam is the first and last person made from the dust of the earth. I'm sure you can see how Eve was first and last in some respect.

Why didn't you try to deal with the creation questions I asked?? I have been noticing that when I pose difficult questions, you, and Deeje, and Hockey Cowboy just avoid them. Maybe one comment is made on one issue to make it look like the post has been answered.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
YHWH is the name above all names. The Messiah's true name is YHWSH (not Jesus) and many others have been given that name - such as the one we call Joshua, the successor to Moses.

No kidding.....We call him the name that is common in English. Is Hebrew your native language? The God who invented language speaks all tongues....otherwise he would not understand all the prayers offered in many different languages.

That has been a common name given to Jewish men. Surely you don't think they all have the name above all names do you?

That verse is saying every tongue will confess that YHWSH ( the messiah's true Hebrew name) is YHWH.
Ummmm.....no its not, because it says that God has given Jesus his new name.....a name that is above all others except Jehovah, because he is "the Most High" so there is no one higher.

How can God give himself a name that is higher than what he already has?

1 Peter 3:22...
"He is at God’s right hand, for he went to heaven, and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him."....... If Jesus was God this scripture makes no sense....how are angels and authorities made subject to him....they already were if he was God. Who made them subject to Jesus?
He inherited the name above all names. Hebrews 1:4 Notice they only started calling him "Lord Jesus" after the resurrection. (Our versions have replaced YHWH with Lord, and YHWSH with Jesus.)
What is that supposed to mean?

Hebrews 1:4..."So he has become better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs."

"Inherited a name more excellent" than the angels? How can that be if he is God?
That is nonsense.....sorry...
 
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TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member

No kidding.....We call him the name that is common in English. Is Hebrew your native language? The God who invented language speaks all tongues....otherwise he would not understand all the prayers offered in many different languages.


Ummmm.....no its not, because it says that God has given Jesus his new name.....a name that is above all others except Jehovah, because he is "the Most High" so there is no one higher.

How can God give himself a name that is higher than what he already has?

! Peter 3:22...
"He is at God’s right hand, for he went to heaven, and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him."....... If Jesus was God this scripture makes no sense....how are angels and authorities made subject to him....they already were if he was God. Who made them subject to Jesus?

What is that supposed to mean?

Hebrews 1:4..."So he has become better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs."

"Inherited a name more excellent" than the angels? How can that be if he is God?
That is nonsense.....sorry...

Your post makes no sense. Answer clearly - What is the name above all names that the Messiah inherited? He was born and given the name YHWSH.

After the resurrection they started calling him YHWH YHWSH (rendered "Lord Jesus" in our versions)
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Your post makes no sense. Answer clearly - What is the name above all names that the Messiah inherited? He was born and given the name YHWSH.

After the resurrection they started calling him YHWH YHWSH (Lord Jesus in our versions)
I'm sorry but you are confusing the title LORD for the name Jehovah (YHWH).....Lord is his title....Jehovah is his name....Jesus is Lord but not LORD, which was a title used for God when the Jews began not to say God's name out loud......if you read the Tanakh you will see the tetragrammaton is the Hebrew text, but "Lord" in the English translation.

There are" many gods and many lords" according to Paul (1 Corinthians 8:5-6) but for the apostles there was only "one God...the Father" who is always identified as Jehovah, and one Lord Jesus Christ....who is never once called Jehovah. They are two separate entities. (John 17:3)
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
I'm sorry but you are confusing the title LORD for the name Jehovah (YHWH).....Lord is his title....Jehovah is his name....Jesus is Lord but not LORD, which was a title used for God when the Jews began not to say God's name out loud......if you read the Tanakh you will see the tetragrammaton is the Hebrew text, but "Lord" in the English translation.

There are" many gods and many lords" according to Paul (1 Corinthians 8:5-6) but for the apostles there was only "one God...the Father" who is always identified as Jehovah, and one Lord Jesus Christ....who is never once called Jehovah. They are two separate entities. (John 17:3)

Nope, they replaced God's name (YHWH) with a title (the LORD) in the Old Testament, and at least indicated it by putting the title in Capital Letters - using "the LORD" - to let us know where the name should be. But they didn't even bother to use capital letters in the New Testament to show where his name should be.

For example :
Prepare ye the way of the LORD (YHWH is in the Hebrew, but it is rendered "the LORD" in our English versions) Isaiah 40:3 (Old Testament)

Now look at the New Testament quoting that very same verse :

Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. Matthew 3:3 (New Testament)

Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. Mark 1:3

Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. Luke 3:4

If they are quoting a verse that had his name in it. Then the name should be there. So that proves that just because it isn't capitalized doesn't mean it isn't supposed to be his name there. I could show you many examples like this.
 

cataway

Well-Known Member
YHWH is the name above all names. The Messiah's true name is YHWSH (not Jesus) and many others have been given that name - such as the one we call Joshua, the successor to Moses. That has been a common name given to Jewish men. Surely you don't think they all have the name above all names do you?

That verse is saying every tongue will confess that YHWSH ( the messiah's true Hebrew name) is YHWH.

He inherited the name above all names. Hebrews 1:4 Notice they only started calling him "Lord Jesus" after the resurrection. (Our versions have replaced YHWH with Lord, and YHWSH with Jesus.)
Odd that you would be proud that you have taken the name of the most high God's name from the bible . and then to say his name is above all other names. humm
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Odd that you would be proud that you have taken the name of the most high God's name from the bible . and then to say his name is above all other names. humm

I am not even sure what you are saying. Please explain yourself better. I am trying to restore his name where it should be. So what are you talking about?
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Don’t belittle. It makes your argument look weak.

Sorry to be so straightforward but it does seem that if you cannot see what John 1:3 is telling us about the prehuman Jesus not having been created then you would not see what I was talking about when discussing Phil 2.

Have you even studied the grammatical structure of John 1:3?

I have read it many times...............but now you are making me feel stupid and somehow less than you. I do know what it says in English. I notice that some translations, including the NWT join the last part of the sentence on to the verse 4 sentence. It does not make a difference to the meaning however, just a bit less emphatic.

One word there, is “chóris”, translated in most Trinitarian bibles as “without”. But look at its main usage here...
Strong's Greek: 5565. χωρίς (chóris) -- separately, separate from

And egeneto, along with another form of it, is used three times.
It indicates Jesus “came into being.”

Whether you translate choris as "without" or "apart", it does not change the meaning.
How does the use of egeneto show that Jesus came into existence. It is not talking about Jesus coming into existence, it is talking about the "all thing" that came into existence through the Word.
You can suggest that Jesus came into existence if you add "other" before "all things" (and the NWT does in many other places,,,,,,,,,,,,and no doubt as you do in your mind when you read John 1:3) but as it stands it is saying that the Word never came into existence because all things that came into existence came into existence through the Word.
But I guess it is no good repeating what the verse says when you have made up your mind that it means something else other than what it says.........................I am cheeky aren't I.

You know, we could really go ‘round and ‘round on doctrine, but Jesus said the way to identify His followers is, not so much by what they teach, but by how they act, how they treat others....John 13:34-35; Matthew 5:44.
Member religions of Christendom (which, BTW, are mostly Trinitarian) have an atrocious reputation in this regard! They’ve valued nationalism, in whatever country they reside, as more important than their spiritual brotherhood....killing their own brothers-in-Christ, just because of some man-made geographic boundaries.
Supporting the world in its wars....a world which Jesus said to be no part of....reveals their disobedience to Christ and God.
Titus 1:16; 1 John 3:10-15. James 4:4

Christendom has no significant truth!
I suppose you believe Hellfire?

The weeds have grown up in amongst the wheat just as Jesus said, and they will be removed when He returns. But I suppose you know that and it will not stop you from accusing Christendom of atrocities and of being the false Church because of those atrocities. I could accuse it of atrocities also but that does not mean it is not the true Church.
I suppose that the JWs are not free of moral failings also in their short history.
It would be sort of like an ad hominem but against an institution and as you point out, Christendom should not be the ones throwing stones.

When it comes to Hellfire as being a place where God tortures people for eternity for not believing in Jesus, no, in that area I sort of agree with the JWs but at the same time I think it is more complex than that and we have to wait to find out exactly what is in store for different people and for the fallen angels. I, as you, need to trust in God to be good and just and merciful as He chooses.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
I'm sorry but you are confusing the title LORD for the name Jehovah (YHWH).....Lord is his title....Jehovah is his name....Jesus is Lord but not LORD, which was a title used for God when the Jews began not to say God's name out loud......if you read the Tanakh you will see the tetragrammaton is the Hebrew text, but "Lord" in the English translation.

There are" many gods and many lords" according to Paul (1 Corinthians 8:5-6) but for the apostles there was only "one God...the Father" who is always identified as Jehovah, and one Lord Jesus Christ....who is never once called Jehovah. They are two separate entities. (John 17:3)

As you see below Jesus is called Jehovah. There are many quotes from the OT concerning Jesus that point to Jesus being Jehovah.

1Peter 2:4 As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For in Scripture it says:

“See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and precious cornerstone,
and the one who trusts in him
will never be put to shame.”

7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,

“The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,”

8 and,

“A stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.”


Isa 8:13 Jehovah of Armies is the one you are to regard as holy,
he is the one you are to fear,
he is the one you are to dread.
14 He will be a holy place;
for both Israel and Judah he will be
a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.
And for the people of Jerusalem he will be
a trap and a snare.
15 Many of them will stumble;
they will fall and be broken,
they will be snared and captured.”
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
As you see below Jesus is called Jehovah. There are many quotes from the OT concerning Jesus that point to Jesus being Jehovah.

1Peter 2:4 As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For in Scripture it says:

“See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and precious cornerstone,
and the one who trusts in him
will never be put to shame.”

7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,

“The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,”

8 and,

“A stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.”


Isa 8:13 Jehovah of Armies is the one you are to regard as holy,
he is the one you are to fear,
he is the one you are to dread.
14 He will be a holy place;
for both Israel and Judah he will be
a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.
And for the people of Jerusalem he will be
a trap and a snare.
15 Many of them will stumble;
they will fall and be broken,
they will be snared and captured.”

Hi Brian2,

You seem to be able to see that the scriptures prove he was YHWH manifest in the flesh. Yet you still believe in the Trinity don't you?
 
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