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Watchtower: Jesus is not "a god"!

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Yes he inherited the name above all names. And that name is YHWH. Which is more proof of who he is.

I would like to make a few points here.....because this is a very poor interpretation of that scripture IMO. Have you really examined Philippians 2:5-11?

From the NET...
"5 You should have the same attitude toward one another that Christ Jesus had,

6 who though he existed in the form of God did not regard equality with God
as something to be grasped
,"


What does it mean to exist in God's "form"? What "form" does a spirit being have?
"God is a spirit", so his son also existed in that form before his human life on earth. But even though he was a perfect human (having no sinful nature) he never put himself above his spiritual brothers, but was a humble servant of his God who never once put himself on the same level as his Father in the eyes of his disciples. By his miraculous powers mere humans could have treated him as a god, but he would have none of that.

"7 but emptied himself by taking on the form of a slave, by looking like other men, and by sharing in human nature.
8 He humbled himself, by becoming obedient to the point of death—even death on a cross! [stauros]"


What does it mean to 'empty oneself'? As a spirit being, which is a superior life form, higher than humans (even perfect ones as Adam was before his defection) to volunteer to become a lower creature (akin to us perhaps becoming a dog or a cat) took a great deal of humility. To go from being a powerful spirit, the second highest personage in the Universe, to becoming a mortal human was a big demotion, but one he willingly undertook because of God's love for his human children whom the pre-human Jesus had helped to create. (John 3:16; Colossians 1:15-17) He knew that his mission would end in death.

Who is Jesus obedient to? The one who sent him. He did not send himself.

To understand Jesus' death means that we comprehend the ransom, and why Jesus is called a "redeemer". He had to be fully human to do that.....there is no scripture that supports a half man/half God scenario. This concept is entirely absent from God's word.

If Jesus was God, then as an immortal, he could not be put to death. Immortals cannot die. Neither humans nor angels were created immortal. God alone possessed immortality in the beginning.....even the son did not have it, which is why he could offer his life on our behalf. But after he had completed his mission, he was granted that status as a reward for his faithful service.

"9 As a result God highly exalted him and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow—in heaven and on earth and under the earth


What is the name that is highly exalted? It says "the name of Jesus" not YHWH...(both in heaven and on earth.) A name is also representative of one's reputation.....Jesus now gained a "name" that is above all others because he took on a role that no one else could be trusted to undertake. His name has been exalted, elevated in the eyes of all as God's most trusted and reliable son....the savior of the human race.

"11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father."

Again his name is confessed, not to bring glory to the son but to glorify the Father.

You need to read scripture but you also have to understand it. This passage is often touted as pro-trinitarian, but it is exactly the opposite upon closer examination.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
The Son of God has the same nature as His Father (John 5:18) and owns all that the Father has. (John 16:15)
The Son does not take the things that are His however without first being given them by His Father.
In the beginning the Word was exactly like God (John 1:1) but did not demand or want to take by force what was His already, because He is the Son and submits to His Father and waits for His Father to exalt Him in due time (Phil 2) when every knee will bend to Jesus.
The Son has been given all power and authority,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,which belonged to Him from eternity.

Show me the Greek word for "nature" in the Scriptures?

If anything, it's "morphe", as used in Philippians 2 6, which means **form**. What 'form' is God? He's spirit, (John 4 23,24), which 'form' Jesus was before He was sent to Earth.

These words that you've been taught to use, like 'nature' & 'essence', are Greek philosophical terms which are not found in the Bible, according to highly acclaimed scholar and Catholic priest John L. McKenzie:

"The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of 'person' and 'nature' which are G[ree]k philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as 'essence' and 'substance' were erroneously applied to God by some theologians." (Dictionary of the Bible, John L. McKenzie, New York, 1965 p. 899. [Underlining and hold type are mine.])

So, it was "given" to Jesus, but really he always had it?
I'm sorry, but that sounds too ridiculous.

"No one has seen God at any time." You know that Scripture? (John didn't say "the Father," he didn't say "the Holy Ghost".....he said "God"!!!!)

But yet, they'll twist it! Don't be one of them. How much clearer does "at any time" have to be?!
 
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Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Yes he inherited the name above all names. And that name is YHWH.

Sorry, but YHWH is Yahweh, the God of Israel. The "ONLY true God" who sent Jesus, per John 17:3.
What does "only" mean? Is it hard to grasp?

This One, also, is Who Jesus prayed to, at John 17 and many other times. And Whom Jesus called His God at John 20 17.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Someone on here seems to be promoting patripassianism,
Where Jesus is the Father.

Some questions:

Exactly who was speaking from the heavens at Jesus’ baptism? Who was Jesus praying to, all those many times? And in one prayer, recorded in John 17, how could Jesus speak of his former existence, saying “And now Father, glorify me with the glory I had beside you, before the world was”? Why would Jesus pray “Let, not my will, but yours take place”? How did the Father ‘forsake’ him right before he died? And who resurrected him, since Jesus was dead, and “the dead know nothing”(Ecclesiastes 9:5)? How could Jesus say, “I’m going my way to the Father,” if the Father was already in him?

And on & on it goes....
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Sorry, but YHWH is Yahweh, the God of Israel. The "ONLY true God" who sent Jesus, per John 17:3.
What does "only" mean? Is it hard to grasp?

This One, also, is Who Jesus prayed to, at John 17 and many other times. And Whom Jesus called His God at John 20 17.

As I explained before, the flesh prayed to the Spirit for strength. The eternal Spirit was the God of that flesh. As the scripture said he is the God of all flesh.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Someone on here seems to be promoting patripassianism,
Where Jesus is the Father.

Some questions:

Exactly who was speaking from the heavens at Jesus’ baptism? Who was Jesus praying to, all those many times? And in one prayer, recorded in John 17, how could Jesus speak of his former existence, saying “And now Father, glorify me with the glory I had beside you, before the world was”? Why would Jesus pray “Let, not my will, but yours take place”? How did the Father ‘forsake’ him right before he died? And who resurrected him, since Jesus was dead, and “the dead know nothing”(Ecclesiastes 9:5)? How could Jesus say, “I’m going my way to the Father,” if the Father was already in him?

And on & on it goes....

Are you really reading the posts, and considering what is being said? The Father is an eternal Spirit. While what is called the Son is a fleshly body the Father dwelt in. The Father is the eternal Spirit and can't die. I said the Son (which was the flesh) is what died, not the eternal Spirit.

The flesh had a different will than the will of the Father. No flesh wants to suffer like he was going to have to suffer in order to do the will of the Spirit.

Re: your question - because the eternal Spirit (the Father) also fills the heavens and the earth. But as the scripture says - in him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power. Colossians 2:9 He is the Almighty because he is the head of all power. If he has all power - is he Almighty or just mighty?

How could he even have a former existence other than as YHWH? That flesh was born of a woman, born under the law. Galatians 4:4

Question: if he wasn't God manifest (made known) in the flesh, why did he let some worship him?
Why didn't he stop them? Since under the law of Moses, it was a death sentence for any of God's people to worship another God?
 
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TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Sorry, but YHWH is Yahweh, the God of Israel. The "ONLY true God" who sent Jesus, per John 17:3.
What does "only" mean? Is it hard to grasp?

This One, also, is Who Jesus prayed to, at John 17 and many other times. And Whom Jesus called His God at John 20 17.

Yes - YHWH is the only true God. And YHWH manifest himself in the flesh, as the Messiah.

YHWH would come forth out of his place and tread upon the high places of the earth. The high places of Judah were said to be Jerusalem. Micah 1:3-5
 
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Brian2

Veteran Member
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Do you want to say that Ezek 18:20 shows that the soul does not survive the death of the body? How would you do that?
Do you realise that "soul" in the Bible is used in different ways and that the JWs don't like to admit to all those ways which are given in the Lexicons?
Ezek 18:20 in context just means that the person that sins will die and not someone else. It is a message about the justice of God.
Matt 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

The problem is that in JW theology when the body dies, the soul has died and you need to contrive something to explain away Matt 10:28.
 

cataway

Well-Known Member
Yes - YHWH is the only true God. And YHWH manifest himself in the flesh, as the Messiah.

YHWH would come forth out of his place and tread upon the high places of the earth. The high places of Judah were said to be Jerusalem. Micah 1:3-5
actually God was manifest in that he sent his ''son''
1 John 4:9 By this the love of God was revealed in our case, that God sent his only-begotten Sons into the world so that we might gain life through him. 10 The love is in this respect, not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins.
 

cataway

Well-Known Member
Do you want to say that Ezek 18:20 shows that the soul does not survive the death of the body? How would you do that?
Do you realise that "soul" in the Bible is used in different ways and that the JWs don't like to admit to all those ways which are given in the Lexicons?
Ezek 18:20 in context just means that the person that sins will die and not someone else. It is a message about the justice of God.
Matt 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

The problem is that in JW theology when the body dies, the soul has died and you need to contrive something to explain away Matt 10:28.
the first thing i see is your tiring to make the bible fit to your beliefs and not the other way around
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Yes, he is speaking God’s words verbatim. Human Prophets used to deliver such messages by saying “This is what Jehovah has said”....and quoting what God told them to say. But this angel delivers God’s messages in person. No human can see God and survive the experience.

Prophets aren't identified as God and don't speak as if they are God. As you say, there is something in the text that shows us that it is Jehovah speaking.
The Angel of the Lord is different however because He is identified as both and angel and as God.
Nobody has seen the invisible God, the Father, but people have seen this messenger angel who is also God. The angel in the burning bush is God and Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu and the 70 elders gazed on God and lived,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,is that a lie or can an angel/Messenger from God be actually God also? Ex 24:9-11

Jesus is God’s appointed Mediator.....the one through whom this reconciliation is made possible. Sin is the barrier between us and God, so can you tell me why we don’t need a mediator between us and Jesus, if he is God?

I think part of the answer at least is in the following passage.

Heb 9:16 In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17 because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18 This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19 When Moses had proclaimed every command of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20 He said, “This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep.” 21 In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

For the New and eternal covenant which takes away the sins of many (not just covering them) a much better sacrifice was needed. God sent His Son (equal in nature to Himself) to become a man and be that sacrifice (once) and a priest forever and the King forever. Jesus, being both God and man is the perfect mediator between God and men and is also the real King of Israel, being both descended from God and from David.
But also when we look back at the Mosaic Covenant we see that Jesus was there also and was the one who spoke to Moses in the bush and was seen by 70 elders etc. Jesus is Jehovah, the Son of God who is equal to God and in whom the Father dwells. Nobody has seen the only true God, the Father, but people have seen the Mediator, the Son, who came from the Father and is in His Father.

The oneness of a man and his wife is physical.....the oneness of Christ with his God is the same as the oneness of Christ with his disciples....not the same at all. This is a spiritual unity of belief and purpose. Not an appropriate comparison IMO.

Deut 6:4 has a number of translations and here is the NWT
4 “Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.

Gen 2:24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.

2 human persons can be one body.
God can also be one even though more than one person.
God is spirit so the 3 persons of the trinity are one Spirit. That is how Jesus could say that the Father was in Him and He is the Father. That is how both the Father and Son come to be with and in each of us through the Holy Spirit we are given.
When it comes to the oneness of Christ with His disciples, the church, we have been given the Spirit of Adoption through which we call God our dad. (Romans 8:15)
The Spirit of Adoption is the Holy Spirit and it unites us to Jesus spiritually just as a man and woman are united physically. Here is a relevant reference.
1Cor 6:16 "Or don’t you know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.” 17 But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with Him in spirit."
Collectively the whole Church is united to Christ spiritually.
But of course this does not apply to any JWs except the 144,000 even though there is nothing about another way in the Bible, it all comes from the imagination of the Governing Body. So you are probably not familiar with these things.

Please feel free to provide them.

I have provided some "angel of the Lord" material already. It also appears in places that the Messiah is divine (Isa 9:6,7) and comes was around before creation. (Mic 5:2) and that the Holy Spirit feels things. (Isa 63:9,10) and that the one who went with Israel in the wilderness was Jehovah, but it was the Holy Spirit and Christ, the Rock who went with them,,,,,,,,the angel of His presence. (Isa 63:9,10)
I'm sure that is enough for now.

“Seems to” is not the same as an actual clear statement. Not one exists.

Isa 9:6,7 is as clear about the Messiah being God as it is clearly Messianic and the Jews deny both.

To have any other personage put on equal footing, or in place of the true God, was a breach of the first Commandment. No other gods meant exactly that.

It is not a breach of the fist commandment if the one who is exactly like His Father (Isa 46: 5 “With whom will you compare me or count me equal? To whom will you liken me that we may be compared?) and is compared with His Father in the New Testament, is actually part of the same God, Jehovah, and is in His Father.
JWs want Jesus to be "a god" when it is that which completely contradicts the OT and the NT.

The Jews accused Jesus of claiming to be a god, in saying that Jehovah was his Father.....that was enough for the accusation of blasphemy! Imagine if he had claimed to be God!?

The Hebrew Scriptures have the possibility of more than one person in God and even point in that direction, as I think I have shown. The Jews knew Jesus was claiming to be the Son of God, the type of Son who has the same nature, the Son from His Father, and so to be equal to His Father.
Actually claiming to be a god would not have been blasphemy because of Ps 82 and other parts of the Hebrew scriptures. Claiming to be a son of God was not blasphemy since the Jews also said that God was their Father. It was claiming to be the real Son of God with the same nature as His Father, which we all share with our fathers, is what was blasphemy.

If Jesus can address his Father as “the only true God” and separate himself as the one that Jehovah “sent” (John 17:3)....and say that ‘knowing both the true God and his representative’ were essential for everlasting life, but he makes no mention of knowing the supposedly equal third party in the trinity, then please tell me where there is a threesome? The holy spirit is almost never mentioned when Jehovah and his son are spoken about together.

But He is mentioned however and is given personality and knows the mind of God and is not created and is living (living waters) and is referred to as God and as the Lord. eg 2 Cor 3:17
John 7:37-39
Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’” But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Isaiah 44:3
‘For I will pour out water on the thirsty land
And streams on the dry ground;
I will pour out My Spirit on your offspring
And My blessing on your descendants;

John 4:14
but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

The trinity is suggested into scripture where there was never even a hint of this concept at the time that they were written.

That is what we do with the scriptures. We read them and get a little bit of information here and a little bit there and join it all together into one doctrine.

I believe that the trinity is one of the principle beliefs that divides the true Christians from the ones whom Jesus will reject at the judgment as “workers of lawlessness”. The trinity breaks God’s law of having only “one God”. (Matthew 7:21-23) The God of Israel did not have three heads, but the god of Roman Emperor Constantine certainly did. You have to know where the trinity came from.

I can see where the Trinity came from in the Bible, I don't need to look elsewhere.
The Word was not created because by the Word ALL THINGS came into being. JWs have to add to and change scripture to see a created Word there. An uncreated Word is the Son who was with God in the beginning and was like God completely.
Isa 46: 5 “With whom will you compare me or count me equal? To whom will you liken me that we may be compared?
The Jews knew that the Son is equal in nature to His Father and the Son is compared to the Father through the NT.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
@Brian2 it appears to me that this conversation is without a convincing conclusion, so we have each given our position and the reasons for them, and will each find out soon enough who the true God is, and whether the trinity is the blasphemy we believe it to be.....or not. It is important that we have our beliefs clear in our minds because the ‘separation of the sheep from the goats’ is based on them.
As my brother has mentioned, you appear to have no concept of agency. You assign the role of the servant to the Master.

Peace to you.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Show me the Greek word for "nature" in the Scriptures?

I found 5449 in Strong's concordance and 3444 also (morphe as in Phil 2:6) which Strongs says means figuratively, nature.

If anything, it's "morphe", as used in Philippians 2 6, which means **form**. What 'form' is God? He's spirit, (John 4 23,24), which 'form' Jesus was before He was sent to Earth.

Phil 2:6 Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness.…

"being/existing in the form of God" uses the present participle "huparchon" and that means Jesus continued to be what He was before. If He was a "spirit" before taking the form of a servant then He was a spirit also after taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of a human. This means that Jesus was both flesh and spirit as a man.
It seems that both translations, "nature" or "form", hit at one or another of JW doctrines. Could Jesus have remained in the form of God (a spirit) as a man, could Jesus be by nature "God" and remain that way as a man?
Interesting dilemma for JWs.
But if you ignore "huparchon" that could be a solution for you.

"The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of 'person' and 'nature' which are G[ree]k philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as 'essence' and 'substance' were erroneously applied to God by some theologians." (Dictionary of the Bible, John L. McKenzie, New York, 1965 p. 899. [Underlining and hold type are mine.])

In a way it was unfortunate that the Church was forced by heresies to go down the path of defining things to the nth degree. It was unfortunate that some people just did not want to see that if ALL things were created by Jesus, that means He is eternal and so is God, and they just did not want to see Jesus as the uncreated Son of God, meaning He is equal to His Father.
But it is easy to get confused and be led astray by false information, and many people are.

So, it was "given" to Jesus, but really he always had it?
I'm sorry, but that sounds too ridiculous.

John 16:15 tells us that all power and authority belonged to Jesus while He was walking the earth. (But He did not use it all, as we know)

"No one has seen God at any time." You know that Scripture? (John didn't say "the Father," he didn't say "the Holy Ghost".....he said "God"!!!!)
But yet, they'll twist it! Don't be one of them. How much clearer does "at any time" have to be?!

Ex 24:9 Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up 10 and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of lapis lazuli, as bright blue as the sky. 11 But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank.

That also is pretty clear. "they saw God, and they ate and drank".

Ex 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

When we add this all up what do we end up with?
Do you think it could mean that people could see God as long as He was covered somehow, as in for example if God came to earth in the likeness of a man?
The Father is the only true God and from Him comes the Holy Spirit, who is called God and is a living person in the scriptures. And from Him came His Son, the one who is by nature God because He is God's Son.
The Father is the source of His Son and the Holy Spirit so the Father is the only true God,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but the Son is not a god because.........
Isa 43:10 Ye are My witnesses, an affirmation of Jehovah, And My servant whom I have chosen, So that ye know and give credence to Me, And understand that I am He, Before Me there was no God formed, And after Me there is none.
None of the other so called gods in scripture are really comparable to Yahweh, who is like me? asks God,,,,,,,,,,,,,but His Son is comparable, He is equal to His Father and eternal and all powerful and can do anything His Father can do and has the same glory and has the same name.
We find out all this in the NT and also see the divinity of the Messiah in the OT.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
@Brian2 it appears to me that this conversation is without a convincing conclusion, so we have each given our position and the reasons for them, and will each find out soon enough who the true God is, and whether the trinity is the blasphemy we believe it to be.....or not. It is important that we have our beliefs clear in our minds because the ‘separation of the sheep from the goats’ is based on them.
As my brother has mentioned, you appear to have no concept of agency. You assign the role of the servant to the Master.
Peace to you.

Ex 3:2 There the angel of the Lord appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. 3 So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight—why the bush does not burn up.”
4 When the Lord saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!”
And Moses said, “Here I am.”
5 “Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.” 6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.

It could be that the angel that was also Jehovah was actually God in bush surrounded by a disguise. Maybe the angel of God's Presence who went with Israel in the wilderness. (Isa 63:9) An angel who actually brought the presence of God with him. Hmmmm interesting.
An agent is a legal term and is probably not in the Bible but even an agent does not confuse matters when he is acting on behalf of someone, by saying that he actually is the one he is acting on behalf of.
Angels and prophets were agents of God and did not pretend to be God. Your idea of God makes Him sound like a God of confusion.
Maybe you should show me what "agency" really means that that your JW doctrine of Jesus is convincingly true from the scriptures.
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
Brian2 i am wondering if you know what an agent is?

Did you read his previous post? I think he was very clear:

Prophets aren't identified as God and don't speak as if they are God. As you say, there is something in the text that shows us that it is Jehovah speaking.

I agree with @Brian2 on this.

@Brian2 it appears to me that this conversation is without a convincing conclusion, so we have each given our position and the reasons for them, and will each find out soon enough who the true God is, and whether the trinity is the blasphemy we believe it to be.....or not. It is important that we have our beliefs clear in our minds because the ‘separation of the sheep from the goats’ is based on them.
As my brother has mentioned, you appear to have no concept of agency. You assign the role of the servant to the Master.

Well, the last thing anyone wants is to be in error @Deeje, so perhaps you, @cataway , or @Hockeycowboy can help us out and explain more thoroughly what you mean with your concept of agency.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
An agent is a legal term and is probably not in the Bible but even an agent does not confuse matters when he is acting on behalf of someone, by saying that he actually is the one he is acting on behalf of.
Angels and prophets were agents of God and did not pretend to be God. Your idea of God makes Him sound like a God of confusion.

On the contrary....what is more confusing than the trinity? This incomprehensible doctrine completely obscures the true identity of the "one God" of Israel (Deuteronomy 6:4) .....the God of Jesus Christ. There was no hint of a trinity in Judaism. Jesus never once said that he was God.....but directed all worship and praise to his God and Father. (John 20:17)

Maybe you should show me what "agency" really means that that your JW doctrine of Jesus is convincingly true from the scriptures.

FWIW.....

Colossians 1:15-17 (NASB)
“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.”

Jesus is the “image” of his God and Father, but his Father is “invisible”, so it cant be a physical likeness. He reflects all of his Father’s qualities. An image is not the original, but a reflection....just as the moon is reflection of the sun. It has no light of its own but reflects the greatest light in our solar system for our benefit.
Jesus was sent to be "the light of the world"....but it wasn't his light....he was reflecting light from his Father.

Jesus is the “firstborn of all creation”......which means that nothing and no one existed before the pre-human Jesus...except the Father himself.

As the “only begotten son”, (though not the only “son of God”) the pre-human Jesus needed a ‘begetter’.....someone who produced him. His creation is unique because he is the only direct creation of his Father.....all other things came into existence “through” the son, which included the things “in the heavens and on earth.” Even the angels were brought into existence by this unique son who was at his Father’s side as a “Master Workman” through the whole process. (Proverbs 8:30-31)

The son was used by his Father to fabricate all the raw materials that the Father alone had brought into existence....using the most powerful force in the Universe....God’s spirit.

There is only one Creator, but Jesus was the agency “through” whom creation was fashioned.....”all things have been created through him and for him”.

If it was created “through him” then he is the agent.....and if it is created “for him” then that again indicates that he was not God, but doesn’t that say a lot about the Father’s love for his son? What a gift!

At Revelation 3:14, Jesus is called “the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God”......so here we have Jesus as the very first Witness of Jehovah.....reinforcing what Paul said...that he is the ”firstborn of all creation”.

Even after his ascension to heaven, he still identifies the Father as his God....
“He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.” (Revelation 3:12 NASB)

John 17:3...
"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

Jesus calls his Father “the only true God’ without including himself. (John 17:3) And there is no holy spirit mentioned here.

The apostles identified who it was that they worshipped...
1 Corinthians 8:5-6......
“For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.” (NASB)

These are two separate beings and again the third “person” is missing. The holy spirit is rarely mentioned together with the Father and son.

So...how on earth do you make those scriptures fit a trinity? If you can, then it requires a lot of scriptural tap-dancing, but that is your prerogative....it simply proves to me that Christendom does not know the god they worship, and that the scriptures indicate that this blasphemy will be held to account as 'lawlessness'....a breach of the first Commandment. (Matthew 7:21-23; Exodus 20:3)
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
Colossians 1:15-17 (NASB)
“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.”

Interesting you would quote this given your WT background, but let's run with it.

Here are some more:

New International Version
For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

New Living Translation
for through him God created everything in the heavenly realms and on earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can’t see— such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world. Everything was created through him and for him.

English Standard Version
For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

Berean Study Bible
For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Berean Literal Bible
because in Him were created all things in the heavens and upon the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or lordships or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through Him and unto Him.

New American Standard Bible
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him.

New King James Version
For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.​


Here we see Jesus created ALL things, not most, the majority, or just a few. All things created includes thrones, dominions, rulers, powers or authorities, visible and invisible, not only upon the earth but in heaven as well.

Question 1 (or should we add this as another unanswered dilemma?): Who is (are) the dominion(s), power(s) and authority in heaven that Jesus created? Who is heaven's ruler?

Question 2: Did Jesus create this ruler?

Question 3: How does this help or support your agency argument? Is it Christ who's speaking here or is it somebody else?

Question 4: Getting back to thread theme, it appears this verse actually hinders the WT's argument that Jesus never claimed to be "a god". In other words, if I understand your use of "agency" correctly, Paul was an "agent" of Jesus and thus speaks "as Jesus" rather than "for Jesus". So why does it sound like Paul is making Jesus out to be "a god"...a charge the WT assures us Jesus never made?
 
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