Watchtower: Jesus is not "a god"!

[TrueBeliever37]

i see that you have taken on poetic license. i tired to find a bible that reads as you said Luke 22:69 reads ''seated in the right of the power of God.'' maybe you can help us out on that one please.

when Christ returned to heaven, he sat down because he had offered himself as the one sacrifice for sin forever. Jesus is seated in heaven. it means he is now in the place of supreme and highest honor in the universe. God has exalted him and given him a name that is above every name (Philippians 2:9-11).

I got that reading from a Greek interlinear. It still means the same thing if you prefer this rendering. Hereafter shall the Son of man sit in the right of the power of God. - Luke 22:69

Yes he inherited the name above all names. And that name is YHWH. Which is more proof of who he is.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

If he was the Almighty, he wouldn't need anything to be "given" him. He would have had it from the beginning.

You are giving very weak responses to the questions and comments in my posts.

 

[cataway]

I got that reading from a Greek interlinear. It still means the same thing if you prefer this rendering. Hereafter shall the Son of man sit in the right of the power of God. - Luke 22:69

Yes he inherited the name above all names. And that name is YHWH. Which is more proof of who he is.

i have a Greek interlinear ,it does not read the way you posted .

and inherited the name ,is really not the right word

 

[cataway]

You are giving very weak responses to the questions and comments in my posts.

Hockeycowboy is correct ,so i ask, do you know the difference in almighty and mighty ?

 

[Brian2]

If he was the Almighty, he wouldn't need anything to be "given" him. He would have had it from the beginning.

The Son of God has the same nature as His Father (John 5:18) and owns all that the Father has. (John 16:15)
The Son does not take the things that are His however without first being given them by His Father.
In the beginning the Word was exactly like God (John 1:1) but did not demand or want to take by force what was His already, because He is the Son and submits to His Father and waits for His Father to exalt Him in due time (Phil 2) when every knee will bend to Jesus.
The Son has been given all power and authority,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,which belonged to Him from eternity.

 

[Brian2]

We believe that in his heavenly position that Jesus (a name he was called only as a human) was called Michael. There are a couple of reasons for this....firstly there are only two who are said to command the angelic forces....Jesus and Michael.

There are Trinitarians also who believe Michael the archangel is Jesus.
There are actually many places in the OT where there is an angel who comes and speaks as if He is God and/or is identified as having been God.

We would add that this is a belief rather than a doctrine because scripture is not definite or specific enough for it to be a doctrine. What we are sure about is that Jesus is not Almighty God.

How do you know that when the Alpha and Omega is God Almighty in Revelations and is also the first and the last just as Jesus is. And the first and the last is Jehovah in Isaiah.

It can be noted that the trinity is a doctrine of the churches but there is no specific scripture that proves that it is true. That is the difference between us and Christendom.....we need more than adopted ideas from paganism to formulate our beliefs....we rely entirely on scripture.

I need scriptural evidence and not man made hypotheses about the origins of the trinity doctrine.

 

[Deeje]

There are actually many places in the OT where there is an angel who comes and speaks as if He is God and/or is identified as having been God.

According to John 1:1 Jesus has been “The Word” (Logos) from the beginning. This title we believe, denotes a spokesman...one who speaks for God. In instances where an angel spoke for God, this would have been the Logos...the pre-human Jesus.

How do you know that when the Alpha and Omega is God Almighty in Revelations and is also the first and the last just as Jesus is. And the first and the last is Jehovah in Isaiah.

Who Is “the Alpha and the Omega”? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

I need scriptural evidence and not man made hypotheses about the origins of the trinity doctrine.

The Bible provides more evidence against a trinity than it does for it. When Jesus walked the earth, there was no trinity. Jews did not teach or believe in such a thing. (Deuteronomy 6:4)

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Hockeycowboy is correct ,so i ask, do you know the difference in almighty and mighty ?

You guy's just seem to be ignoring the questions and points being made. You back each other up with likes and funny, etc but can't counter the actual points made. I could show you in the old testament where YHWH is called mighty. Does that mean he is not the Almighty? But it doesn't seem to make any difference what I show to you.

I already showed you in Revelation where the one coming quickly who is clearly named (Revelation 22:20) said he was the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last (Revelation 22:12-13) declares himself to be the Almighty in Revelation 1:7-8. (There that is proof that he is YHWH - the Almighty)

 

[TrueBeliever37]

i have a Greek interlinear ,it does not read the way you posted .

and inherited the name ,is really not the right word

The point is the same either way. Why don't you counter the actual point that was made in the post? Instead of picking on wording that makes the same essential point either way. I changed the wording for you in post #61. What's wrong now? (Surely you don't think every translator is going to use the exact same wording.)

Actually it was the name he inherited. But rather than argue that, please respond to the basic point. Do you argue that YHWH is not the name above all names? (That's what Thomas called him. Remember he said My YHWH and my God.)

 

[TrueBeliever37]

If he was the Almighty, he wouldn't need anything to be "given" him. He would have had it from the beginning.

The eternal Spirit dwelling in that body was the Almighty. The flesh he took on was weak until resurrected and changed to a glorified spiritual body. So that fleshly body would need to be "given" a change. (I gave proof from the book of Revelation that he is the Almighty in post #68)

Why do you ignore all the other points I have made?

 

[Brian2]

i have a Greek interlinear ,it does not read the way you posted .

and inherited the name ,is really not the right word

The name is above ALL names. What name is above ALL names?
Jesus is the son and has been appointed heir of all things (Heb 1:2 compare Ps 89:27)
Ps 89:27 And I will place him as firstborn, The highest of the kings of the earth.

but really "inheritance" does not matter even though that is what Hebrews 1:4 tells us even in the New World Translation. It is the name He inherits which is important.

 

[cataway]

Why do you ignore all the other points I have made?

because even if you are 50% right you are still 100% wrong . there is only one true God and he can't be divided.

 

[cataway]

The eternal Spirit dwelling in that body was the Almighty.

was it ?? just how could anyone snuff out the life of that body if in fact the spirit was almighty?
Jesus was a man perfectly equal to the man Adam . did Adam have the spirit of the almighty ?? we all know he did get his spirit directly form God .

 

[Brian2]

According to John 1:1 Jesus has been “The Word” (Logos) from the beginning. This title we believe, denotes a spokesman...one who speaks for God. In instances where an angel spoke for God, this would have been the Logos...the pre-human Jesus.

It is confusing what this angel is actually identified as God in the text and speaks as if he is God.

Who Is “the Alpha and the Omega”? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

I can agree that it is probably not Jesus saying "I am the Alpha and Omega" in the first 2 times it appears but not so with the time it appears in Rev 22.
After all Jesus is definitely the "first and the last" (the same as what is said of God in Isaiah) and the same as what you say that God in Rev 22 said of Himself and what Jesus said of Himself at Rev 1:17.. How many firsts and lasts are there do you think?
Jesus is the one who is coming to judge the earth and in Revelations and in the OT it is Jehovah who is the one coming to judge the earth. The judgement of course will be given through Jesus when He comes but in the OT and in Revelations it is God who is said to be coming also.
Have you thought that God actually is coming in Jesus when Jesus comes? After all in Jesus dwell the fullness of absolute deity bodily. (Col 2:9--and the word used actually does mean "absolute deity" )
It is Jesus whom John wants to come in Rev 22:20, so Jesus coming seems to cover both Jesus and God coming.
Personally I doubt that God would lie to us that He is coming if in fact He is not coming.

The Bible provides more evidence against a trinity than it does for it. When Jesus walked the earth, there was no trinity. Jews did not teach or believe in such a thing. (Deuteronomy 6:4)

It is understandable that the Jews might have seen Deut 6:4 as meaning a certain thing but the Shema does not teach against the doctrine of the Trinity since the "one" used can be a "combination one" as when it is used to say that the man and woman would be one flesh. (Gen 2:24)
There is enough trinity type teaching in the OT to make it a possibility even if the full revelation of Jesus was no doubt needed to determine the doctrine for sure. The Jews should never have cut off the possibility of the Messiah actually being the real Son of God,,,,,,,,,,,equal to God,,,,,,,,,,,,and really the possible divinity of the Messiah seems to have been taught in the OT.

 

[Brian2]

because even if you are 50% right you are still 100% wrong . there is only one true God and he can't be divided.

There is one true God and Jesus is in Him and the Holy Spirit is in and proceeds from Him. If I could see the Father I would also see the Son and the Holy Spirit,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,just as if I see Jesus I have also seen the Father and the Holy Spirit.............and the Father and Son live in a Christian through the Holy Spirit who was sent to be with us and in us. (John 14:17) The Holy Spirit is even called the Lord (Jehovah in the NWT) (2 Cor 3:17,18)

There is no dividing the one true God, the Father. He is one and is a combination one as when a man and woman are called one flesh in Gen 2:24.

 

[Brian2]

was it ?? just how could anyone snuff out the life of that body if in fact the spirit was almighty?
Jesus was a man perfectly equal to the man Adam . did Adam have the spirit of the almighty ?? we all know he did get his spirit directly form God .

The soul does not die at the death of the body (Matt 10:28)
Adam had life from God and was a man only.
Jesus is the Son of God who came from God and is equal to God in nature.
The Pharisees had no reason to want to kill someone who claimed to be God's son since they also claimed that of themselves. The Pharisees knew what Jesus meant when He claimed to be God's Son and knew it meant that He has the same nature as His Father,,,,,,,,,God nature,,,,,,,,,,,which He carried with Him when He became a man. (ie He is the same yesterday, today and forever).

 

[cataway]

The soul does not die at the death of the body (Matt 10:28)
Adam had life from God and was a man only.
Jesus is the Son of God who came from God and is equal to God in nature.
The Pharisees had no reason to want to kill someone who claimed to be God's son since they also claimed that of themselves. The Pharisees knew what Jesus meant when He claimed to be God's Son and knew it meant that He has the same nature as His Father,,,,,,,,,God nature,,,,,,,,,,,which He carried with Him when He became a man. (ie He is the same yesterday, today and forever).

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

 

[Oeste]

You guy's just seem to be ignoring the questions and points being made. You back each other up with likes and funny, etc but can't counter the actual points made.

I have the same lament. They don't actually answer questions, but they may make a tepid response and consider that an answer whether the question has been answered or not. Worse, the answer to question 1 does not have to agree in any way with the answer to question 2. Jesus can be "Mighty God" in one verse, "a god" in yet another, but never "a god" in a third. It's the same in their "bible" studies where according to the Watchtower, you can "cease to exist" yet be "unconscious" at the exact same time. Doctrinal conformity is vastly preferred over scriptural harmony. How else can a Witness keep their fellow Witness as friend?

Generally they move from point to point (think of them as rabbit holes). You flash a light down one hole and , ask a few questions, and suddenly they pop up a few feet away shouting "Hey, what about this hole?"!

They're Christology appears to be based more on proof texts that attack the Trinity than hermeneutics or exegetical study. Their literature rails against Trinitarians as if they were Oneness or Sabellian, and against Sabellianists as if they were Trinitarians. The net affect is like scolding Witnesses for the writings of Joseph Smith.

However, if you can force them to stay in a particular hole (that is, to actually defend and exegete scripture) they become quiet soon enough.

I disagree with your Christology @TrueBeliever37 but I understand the frustration.

 

[Deeje]

It is confusing what this angel is actually identified as God in the text and speaks as if he is God.

Yes, he is speaking God’s words verbatim. Human Prophets used to deliver such messages by saying “This is what Jehovah has said”....and quoting what God told them to say. But this angel delivers God’s messages in person. No human can see God and survive the experience.

Have you thought that God actually is coming in Jesus when Jesus comes? After all in Jesus dwell the fullness of absolute deity bodily. (Col 2:9--and the word used actually does mean "absolute deity" )
It is Jesus whom John wants to come in Rev 22:20, so Jesus coming seems to cover both Jesus and God coming.
Personally I doubt that God would lie to us that He is coming if in fact He is not coming.

The one who sends the Savior is also a Savior. It is Jehovah who is acting through his son to bring about reconciliation with himself. We can only come back to the Father through the son....he said “No one can come to the Father except through me”. The trinity completely buries that fact and complicates a rather simply presented relationship between the Father and his firstborn son. A relationship well understood by the Jews.

Jesus is God’s appointed Mediator.....the one through whom this reconciliation is made possible. Sin is the barrier between us and God, so can you tell me why we don’t need a mediator between us and Jesus, if he is God?

It is understandable that the Jews might have seen Deut 6:4 as meaning a certain thing but the Shema does not teach against the doctrine of the Trinity since the "one" used can be a "combination one" as when it is used to say that the man and woman would be one flesh. (Gen 2:24)

The oneness of a man and his wife is physical.....the oneness of Christ with his God is the same as the oneness of Christ with his disciples....not the same at all. This is a spiritual unity of belief and purpose. Not an appropriate comparison IMO.

There is enough trinity type teaching in the OT to make it a possibility even if the full revelation of Jesus was no doubt needed to determine the doctrine for sure.

Please feel free to provide them.

The Jews should never have cut off the possibility of the Messiah actually being the real Son of God,,,,,,,,,,,equal to God,,,,,,,,,,,,and really the possible divinity of the Messiah seems to have been taught in the OT.

“Seems to” is not the same as an actual clear statement. Not one exists.

To have any other personage put on equal footing, or in place of the true God, was a breach of the first Commandment. No other gods meant exactly that. The Jews did not have a triune God, but the pagans did. Ancient Egypt for example had both a trinity and a cross in their worship....the Jews never did.

The Jews accused Jesus of claiming to be a god, in saying that Jehovah was his Father.....that was enough for the accusation of blasphemy! Imagine if he had claimed to be God!?

If Jesus can address his Father as “the only true God” and separate himself as the one that Jehovah “sent” (John 17:3)....and say that ‘knowing both the true God and his representative’ were essential for everlasting life, but he makes no mention of knowing the supposedly equal third party in the trinity, then please tell me where there is a threesome? The holy spirit is almost never mentioned when Jehovah and his son are spoken about together.

The trinity is suggested into scripture where there was never even a hint of this concept at the time that they were written.

I believe that the trinity is one of the principle beliefs that divides the true Christians from the ones whom Jesus will reject at the judgment as “workers of lawlessness”. The trinity breaks God’s law of having only “one God”. (Matthew 7:21-23) The God of Israel did not have three heads, but the god of Roman Emperor Constantine certainly did. You have to know where the trinity came from.

 

[Deeje]

First off, I would like you to notice that "hand" is not actually in the verse. It was added in by Trinitarian translators. Which makes it look like more than one. My question for you is, if that was what it meant - How can you sit on the right hand side of a Spirit which fills the heavens and the earth?

The Bible itself speaks of the Son sitting at the right hand of his Father. This is the position of one who is second in command. David even prophesied about his Lord ‘sitting at God’s right hand awaiting the time when his enemies would be placed as his footstool’......and this was long before Jesus even came to this earth. (Psalm 110:1-2 Many scriptural verses place Jesus at God’s right hand (1 Peter 3:22; Romans 8:34; Luke 22:69) Stangely, there is never a single scripture that puts God’s spirit at his left hand.

I notice that you identify as a “non denominational Christian”....this is such an obscure identification because it basically means that you have created your own ‘church’ with your own personal interpretation of scripture. How can anyone convince you of anything when you are the sole arbiter of your own interpretation of the Bible’s teachings? It is a completely wasted exercise.

It makes your arguments, yours alone....ya know?
So you just continue to believe what you believe if that is your wish. And we will continue to believe what we believe because Jesus will be the one who determines who are “doing the will of the Father” and who are not. We will let him be the judge, because arguing with loners is pointless. You need a brotherhood with whom you identify and with whom you share beliefs and with whom you meet for worship. (1 Corinthians 1:10; Hebrews 10:24-25) Apparently, non denominational “Christians” don’t need any of that.