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Featured Watchtower: Jesus is not "a god"!

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Oeste, Jul 16, 2020.

  1. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    So sorry, but it does not say that Christ is the Deity. As I said, and it is a force to be taken into consideration, when God told Moses that he would be elohim to Pharaoh, would you say that despite the miracles backing Moses that he was God in bodily form?
    Plus God has a body. By God I mean the Father of Jesus, the One that was in heaven when Jesus was on the earth. His voice was heard at Jesus' baptism. Jesus was not a ventriloquist.
     
  2. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    I was bringing out Col. 1:19 because it said that it pleased God.to have all fullness dwell in Jesus. So I can't see how that (1) makes Jesus God, or (2) equal to God, since it says God was pleased to have all fullness dwell in Jesus. It meant that God was pleased to instill Jesus with his spirit. It doesn't mean that Jesus was God equal to the One who instilled all fullness to dwell in him.
     
  3. cataway

    cataway Well-Known Member

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    in deeded mankind was given free will . it has to mean God would not know . if he did know then it would mean things would ''have'' to happen . he however can make thing happen
     
  4. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    I guess God can decide to not know an outcome, or to forget it, whatever explanation is appropriate.
    God, in knowing the future, and the outcome in the end has decided that it is worth it. It would be a very irresponsible God to have just let things go without weighing the pros and cons.
    Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed body;
    all the days ordained for me were written in your book
    before one of them came to be.
    When it comes to God's words some of them might not make sense to us and some of them may seem to contradict and some of them seem to make God into a cruel being,,,,,,,,,,,,but if all of them are true then God is good, as His word says and we should believe all His words. I know I'm talking about your refusal to believe what the Bible tells us about God's foreknowledge but I am also talking about some things in the Bible which I have issues with also. It certainly can be hard to believe it all at times.
     
  5. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    With Moses I would say that Ex 7:1 does not say that Moses would be elohim to Pharaoh. It says that Moses would be like God to Pharaoh and Aaron would be his prophet. That is because God allowed Moses to not be the one who was speaking audibly but was telling things to Aaron to speak to Pharaoh.

    Why are you saying that as if Trinitarianism taught that Jesus is the Father?
    Col 2:9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
    It does not say Jesus is God, true. It seems to imply that Jesus is exactly like His Father even if the OT tells us that nobody is like God.
    Isa 46: 5 To whom will you liken Me or count Me equal? To whom will you compare Me, that we should be alike?
    Isa 40: 25 “To whom will you compare me?
    Or who is my equal?” says the Holy One.
    26 Lift up your eyes and look to the heavens:
    Who created all these?

    The NT tells us of someone who is exactly like Yahweh of the OT and who even created the heavens. Jesus must be Yahweh. Obviously Jesus is not His Father but Jesus is Yahweh along with His Father. Jesus even inherits the name that is above all names.
     
  6. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

    Not just all fullness but all His fullness. Jesus was completely God even while walking the earth as a man, not just a little god.
    We are joined spiritually to Jesus and so are we have a fullness also, but Jesus has all of God's fullness, something we can never have.
    There were no ifs or buts about whether Jesus could be sinless or save us, there were no tests that God put Jesus through so that God would know Jesus was worthy. Satan tested Jesus to try to ruin salvation, God allowed it to show Jesus was worthy, not to see if He was worthy.
     
  7. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Yes of course what God knows will happen will happen. How does this force people to do certain things? God knows what they will freely choose. God can see the future, that is what the Bible teaches us.
    God is everywhere (I guess that might mean in the future also). The Bible also teaches that, that God is everywhere.
    The WT certainly denies a lot of what the Bible explicitly teaches.
     
  8. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    First the WT tells us it would be more "compassionate" for God to kill people then to let them live in punishment, and now this??:

    Why on earth would letting mankind become, or "be" make him "cruel" or " a pretty miserable god"? How dd the WT convince you of this?

    God knew exactly what would happen, and that we would be less than perfect. You are simply taking the WT's pro-abortion rational and applying it to all mankind.

    Let me ask you, @cataway or any other JW on this site this:

    Who shows the greater love? The one that keeps her baby even though she knows it will be born defective, or the one who aborts it because the fetus, once born, will face untold hardship?

    God did not abort us because He is "cruel" or "miserable", but decided to go ahead with our creation because He loves us!

    From the presented WT rationale we glean two things:

    1. Jehovah Witnesses should not work our penal system. They view it much better for the guilty to be killed rather than live in continued punishment and

    2. Jehovah Witnesses should not work our birthing centers. Any non-perfect or defective baby born must surely have a "cruel" or "miserable" mother and/or father!​

    Again, if you can explain why we should not come to these conclusion based on the WT arguments presented, please tell us why. Also if you can tell us exactly what you found persuasive in the WT's rationale would be equally and greatly appreciated.
     
    #528 Oeste, Sep 7, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2020
  9. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    Very good! :)
     
  10. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    Sorry, but that doesn't make sense. Here's why: IF you believe in hellfire, eternal torture etc. in your concept of hell, and you say that God knows from the beginning what the end of a person will be, then yes, he is a cruel god. Then you say (as Calvinists evidently do, but not sure if you go with that) that while we have "free will," God still knows the future for each one of us. So now let me ask you this question--what do you believe happens to those who are not "saved" (and, of course, according to your belief, God knows in advance who is or isn't saved in the 'long run')? So what happens to them? Surely you must have a belief about that.
    Now if you don't believe in hellfire eternal torture or whatever you think the damned will experience eternally, we'll go over that question if you'd like. In other words, what happens if God knows the outcome of (1) Adam and Eve before they did what they did by eating the fruit He told them not to, and (2) if He knows from the beginning of each life what their final outcome will be. (What happens to those that God supposedly according to your theory, knows in advance that they won't be "saved"?)
     
  11. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    Frankly, you and several others are greatly convincing me that I am privileged to know God and from that based on what I've learned from my study of the Bible and its reasoning with Jehovah's Witnesses. Now, getting back to your assertion about Adam and Eve and foreknowledge. God KNEW what would happen IF they sinned. He didn't wring his hands and say "Oh, what am I going to do???"
    Many of the things you said above are simply wrong about my belief,
    Maybe you think Adam didn't sin anyway, I don't know if you even believe what the Bible says about Adam and Eve. But let's say you think they did sin, and He banished them from the Garden of Eden, He KNEW what would happen IF they sinned. He and His dear Son also knew that the Son was willing to pay the price for their disobedience. But He did not know in advance what Adam and Eve and others would do. You might as well say He knew Cain would kill Abel in advance. It doesn't make sense and doesn't add up to what the scriptures say. He is a just God.
     
  12. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    It sounds like your beliefs about many things are based on philosophy and not on what God tells us. You do not even try to tell me what the Bible verses I post actually mean, is that because all you can say is that they are wrong because the WT tells you something different?

    Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed body;
    all the days ordained for me were written in your book
    before one of them came to be.
    2 Chron 6:18 But will God indeed dwell with man upon the earth? Even heaven, the highest heaven, cannot contain You, much less this temple I have built.
     
  13. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    How does the final destiny of the unsaved have any bearing on whether God knows the future? It sounds like an attempts to change the topic.
    I will add this also which seems to indicate that Paul also may have struggled with such thing. This answer seemed to satisfy him.
    Romans 9:21 Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use? 22 What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction? 23 What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory—
     
    #533 Brian2, Sep 8, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2020
  14. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    My information is that only once in his writings does John use arche to mean "first thing" in a series.(John 2:11) In Revelations arche is used only 3 times apart from Rev 3:14 and they are about God and we know that God is not first in a series of things. (Rev 1:8,21:6,22:13) But of course Revelation 22:13 may be about Jesus.
    In all other places in John's writings he uses arche to mean a beginning point in time.

    Thanks for the information about Archon and maybe it eliminates arche as meaning ruler at Rev 3:14. It certainly is evidence that may eliminate that meaning.
    Archon is related to Arche and archon can mean ruler or beginning just as Arche can have those meanings and does have the meaning of ruler or rule or domain or principalities etc in various parts of the New Testament.

    I am wondering if John ever uses arche to mean "first in a series of things", which is what the WT interpretation of Rev 3:14 is suggesting. As I wrote above, my information tells me that the other times John uses arche is to refer to a beginning point in time (except for John 2:11).

    No trinitarian scholars however agree with the JW interpretation of the verse, that God created Jesus first before anything else. There are differences of opinion amongst the scholars however about whether arche is used at Rev 3:14 to mean Some do go the way of arche meaning active cause, eg Thayer and some go the way of it meaning head or ruler of the creation. Both these reflect what Jesus is said to be in other parts of the New Testament.
    It seems that the WT interpretation of the verse taken by itself is OK, but if the verse is interpreted that way it means that it creates contradictions with other passages in the New Testament which show Jesus as being uncreated. The WT seems to have gone out of it's way to alter or change the plain meaning of these passages however.
    If Jesus could be shown legitimately in other places to be a created being then Rev 3:14 could be interpreted as the WT does. As far as I can see there are only a couple of possible places where this could be done.
    Prov 8:22,23 however cannot be used to show Jesus was created because for one it is not clear that the passage is about Jesus and the word translated "created" in some translations should more properly be translated as "got" or "possessed" to reflect the way the word is translated in other places in Proverbs.
    Other things could also be said about Prov 8:22,23, but I'll stick to saying that only Yahweh alone spread out the heavens so if someone who was called Wisdom was there, that one was also Yahweh. We see this in Heb 1:10 where the heavens are called the work of Jesus hands, but only Yahweh was there.
    I suppose another possible place is Col 1:15 but to do that the WT has to add the word "other" to alter the plain meaning of what follows, and to refuse to acknowledge a meaning for "firstborn" in the Lexicons and how it is used of Jesus in the OT. (see Ps 89:27 where Jesus is appointed to be "firstborn". Someone who is actually born first IS the firstborn and does not need to be appointed)
     
  15. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    Since nothing like this has ever been uttered by @Brian2 or myself, I’m pretty sure it was the Jehovah Witnesses and not us that convinced you of this.

    God KNEW what would happen if they sinned, and He knew what would happen if they didn’t.

    I'm not sure how you arrived to the former conclusion without concluding the latter.

    Of course not! That’s not Christianity’s God, that’s a WT God.

    A WT God doesn’t know our future, much less His own. So of course He’s going to “wring his hands” and say “Oh, what am I going to do?”! Why? Because such a God is clueless! He's vastly smaller in size, scope, grandeur and majesty than the God we find in the Christian bible.

    How long will the WT's God remain clueless? Until the WT say differently! We all know that if the next issue of the WT claims "new light" and states God is all knowing, every single Jehovah Witness, all 8 million of you, will fall in line. In fact, you will wonder how you could have ever believed otherwise.

    Then please tell us what is “wrong” about my perception of your belief because from what you and others have said, and from my numerous studies with JW’s, it seems pretty “right” to me.

    You yourself stated it would be “cruel” of God to have allowed us to be born if He knew we would be defective! I cannot fathom the reasoning behind that. I have a cousin who is severely disabled. She cannot eat without assistance. She cannot talk. She cannot walk. She is blind. She wears an adult diaper. She does feel and she can hear and smell. Her mother knew she would be severely disabled before she was born but decided to go to term because she loved her baby.

    It amazes me that you would think this was an “ungodly” act, but that is exactly what you are telling me when you say God would not have created mankind if He knew we would be “defective”. Yes, you say, He would have aborted mankind immediately!!

    And then we have the other end of the spectrum where you tell us it is cruel to give someone life in punishment, but far less cruel to kill them instead. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and nothing you have posted so far has enlightened us as to why it would.

    My goodness you do jump around and I’m still trying to get answers to the OP!! You're not trying to change the subject, are you? I'd really like to know what was convincing in the "kill rather than punish", "abort rather than be defective" line of reasoning that made you reflect and say "I am privileged to know God and from that based on what I've learned from my study of the Bible and its reasoning with Jehovah's Witnesses".

    I do not see their reasoning as you do, but I'd like to know why, and for that I'll need a bit more of the rationale behind the reason.

    Not only what would happen IF they sinned, but IF they didn’t. He not only sees what WILL happen but what COULD happen. He foresees and presides over any and all potential possibilities. Let’s not forget who created our entire reality, everything that was, everything that is, and everything that, from our perspective, has yet to be including space and time. The Christian God is no Zeus or All Father Odin but beyond the scope of anything we could dream or imagine. He can bring what is to naught, and what is not to be. He is not confined by space and time, He does not live in the star system Pleiades, but He does set the foundation and borders of our universe and any other.

    “He did not know in advance” is simply another way to say God is completely ignorant at certain times...in fact all times future. It is something JW’s like to say, but it’s not anything we find in scripture. Please see @Brian2’s posts on the subject. Then explain why demons know the future whereas God does not. (Acts 16:16:40).

    Yes, He did.

    It makes no sense that Witnesses cannot answer the 3 simple dilemmas put forth in the OP.

    It makes no sense that God doesn’t know His creation. Quite simply, if God doesn’t know the end of Time then He doesn’t know the ends of Space either, and things have seriously gotten out of His hands.

    It makes no sense that you cannot tell me the order of initial creation. Did God create Time and Space first, wait a fraction and then create Jesus so that he was “…’in’ the beginning”?

    It makes no sense that God would prefer to kill sinners rather than allow them to live in punishment, thus allowing wardens of our prisons to show more grace and mercy than God.

    It makes no sense that God would prefer to abort rather than create mankind simply because they would be flawed, thus allowing my cousin to show more grace and mercy than God.

    And it makes no sense that we should add jots and tittles or any other scurrilous addition to scripture in order to make our doctrines more "biblical" (Col 1:17).

    What the WT says doesn't add up. With scripture the math is impeccable.

    That He is, but let’s remember…the WT’s version of a “just God” kills rather than punishes, and aborts rather than creates . Thus, according to the WT, He is not just by deed but just by name only.

    Nothing you’ve told us so far gives any inclination that Jehovah Witnesses would run our birthing or penal systems “justly” but "cruelly". If this is a misstatement of your belief, tell us why.
     
  16. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    If god knows personally because he wanted to know who will burn in hell (another distorted teaching as to its depiction) as so many think or who will go to eternal bliss in heaven (also as many imagine--or maybe purgatory) then that is not a loving god. I can't see that free will and then knowing beforehand who would not be saved or saved from the moment of conception goes hand in hand if he has the power to change the course of events.
     
  17. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    I can't say because i don't understand.
     
  18. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    Wait. Did you say you believe that the Bible is the word of God?
     
  19. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    I doubt that God just closed His eyes to what was going to happen in His creation.
    Do you think that God is going to force people to believe or do what is right? I don't.
    Do you think that God did not know that sickness and suffering would happen?
    Do you think that God could have made a world where sickness and suffering did not happen even if Adam did sin? Does sickness and suffering make God cruel?
    Is God evil for bringing good times and bad times onto the earth? (Isa 45:7)
    Personally when it comes to the afterlife I don't see God as tormenting or torturing people forever. That sounds like a distortion of the Bible when non believers use it and a distortion of the teachings of the Church.
     
  20. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    I find many in the WT Organization have the same quizzical response. If they can't find the question at the bottom of a WT publication they simply don't understand the question.

    That was certainly non-responsive :rolleyes:

    But yes, I believe in scripture just not the Watchtower . Otherwise I wouldn't be able to answer questions either.

    .
     
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