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Featured Watchtower: Jesus is not "a god"!

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Oeste, Jul 16, 2020.

  1. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member

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    According to surrounding verses in John Chapter 10 ; YES

    biblehub.com/john/10-33.htm

    Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

    Are you saying the correct factually interpretation of the Jews is; he said "I and my Father are Christ" or, he said "I and my Father are one Christ.?

    CORRECT; If they were correct, but it was not correct because he was saying "He and is Father is one in agreement?

    Why do I know this?

    1. Did not refer to Father as himself and referred to his Father being greater than all which would include him.

    Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

    2. Said he is the Son of God our Father who sent him

    Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?


    You are subordinate to the one greater than you therefore One in Agreement.

    Actually it probably should be the other way around.






    =
     
    #281 Iymus, Aug 17, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2020
  2. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    Okay, so you're referring to John 10:30, but I'm not seeing "in the same"

    Neither. I'm saying "I and the Father are one" is the correct factual interpretation of Jesus. As for the Jews, they wanted to stone Jesus for blasphemy, and not for making himself "a god" but for making himself "God".

    If he is saying that he is one in agreement then the Jews have no cause to pick up stones. But if the Jews thought Jesus was saying the Father and he were one and the same (which is what you appear to be implying) then John 10:33 should read "God" and not "a god", because the Father is not "a god".

    Probably not since it appears you actually support the majority translation at John 10:33, to wit:

    “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
     
  3. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member

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    Very disingenuous and insincere: When the full breakdown or meaning is not in your favour or liking; you don't study surrounding verses and his surrounding words in the same chapter for full context; But if the full breakdown or meaning is in your favour or liking then you would e

    You have already proven your lack of sincerity and partiality thru your own words concerning doctrines so pointless for me to continue but I can leave you with this

    Psa 119:104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.

    Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
    Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
     
    #283 Iymus, Aug 17, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2020
  4. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member

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    Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

    FYI "John 10:30" is a sentence fragment

    A sentence fragment is a group of words that looks like a sentence, but actually isn't a complete sentence. Sentence fragments are usually missing a subject or verb, or they do not express a complete thought. While it may be punctuated to look like a complete sentence, a fragment cannot stand on its own.

    [​IMG]
     
  5. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    Agreed.
     
  6. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    I didn't look at the Greek yet, but he countered by calling his accusers gods. Did you miss that? The question really is, did he say he was "God"? No, he didn't. No matter what translation you use, he knew that he was NOT THE GOD they were accusing him of. Sorry you don't "see" that. As Jesus said, I paraphrase, none is so blind that say they see but don't. Ah well, have a nice day.
     
  7. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    Glad you mention that. So just to be clear, are you saying that one of those persons (the Son) left heaven and two of the three equal godpersons remained in heaven?
     
  8. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    This sounds like another unwarranted and unsubstantiated negative dispersion.


    No, John 10:30 is a complete sentence. It has two subjects, a neuter adjective and a verb:

    εγω..........και..........ο............πατηρ...........εν............εσμεν

    I.............and.........the........father.........one........we are


    "I" is a 1st person pronoun, "and" is a conjunction, "the" is a definite article, "father" is a noun, "one" is an adjective, and "we are" is a verb.

    To find the subject, simply ask what the verb is acting on. In this instance it is "I" and "Father". There is no missing subject or verb.

     
  9. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    Some people I see here say that God is in them. Does that make them God? Just wondering what you think. Or better yet, if God is with someone does that make them God? I don't want to get too complicated, so maybe the first question is one you can answer.
     
  10. tigger2

    tigger2 Active Member

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    The adjective hen is in the neuter case which means they are in agreement, not that they are both God (or any thing else). We see this same use of hen at John 17:21, 22 for God, Jesus and men.
     
    #290 tigger2, Aug 17, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2020
  11. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member

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    the following does not surprise me; always trying to move goal post even when proven John 10:30 is a sentence fragment.

    :rolleyes:
    :oops:
    --------------------

    Why have you not posted your source or link of what the definition of a complete sentence is?

    "John 10:30 " does not express a complete thought

    I and My Father are one. One what?????????????????

    Husband and Wife are one . One what??????????????

    One is being used as an adjective to describe something, thought, or concept. That something, thought, or concept is not given so it is a sentence fragment.
    -------------------------------------------
     
    #291 Iymus, Aug 17, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2020
  12. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    No I did not miss that. Jesus's counter does not change what the Jews thought, and what the Jews thought was that Jesus committed a blasphemy.

    The only time you pick up stones for blasphemy is when you defame the Divine Name. Defaming a non-divine name is not a blasphemy and it's certainly not a reason for the Jews to pick up stones.

    Don't you like the Watchtower? Look on their website and the New World Translation will take you DIRECTLY to Leviticus 24:16. I put it in the opening post but here it is again:

    [​IMG]

    Source: https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/nwt/books/john/10/#v43010033


    It's pretty obvious the Jews thought Jesus was making himself God. The words had already left the mouths by the time Jesus sought to correct the crowd and a later correction by Jesus is not going to change what was already spoken.

    Look, If I accuse you of stealing my watch and you deftly point out it's on my drawer, your correction is not going to change the fact that I had accused you of stealing my watch.

    It's the same for the Temple crowd.
     
  13. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    I happen to agree with you @tigger2:


    I didn't say they are both God. I stated they are subjects of the verb.

    This is quite informative. Thank you.
     
  14. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    Because you already had.

    Of course it does. Your own post and source prove it. Here it is again:


    We have a subject, a verb and a complete thought. What the complete thought? It's that the Father and Jesus are one.

    Not one what, but one.


    The concept is given. Please see @tigger2's comments above. Perhaps it becomes more believable for you if you hear it from him.
     
  15. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member

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    One Existence???

    One Spirit???

    One Flesh???

    One in Agreement???

    One in Opposition???
    --------------------------

    "John 10:30" lacks a complete thought; without supporting verses we do not know the context of what therefore it is a sentence fragment
     
  16. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member

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    Then I may have to refer to yourself as a stupid person in your Mark twain quote; Since those verses are saying The Father, The Son, and The disciples given to the Son by the Father are one. Which godhead of the trinity are the disciples based off your logic? Or are you going to move the goal post again? The verses he referenced practically dismantled your whole foundation of John 10:30.

    Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

    Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
     
  17. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    If someone believes that Jesus is Yahweh manifest in the flesh, what difference does this make as far as the trinity goes?
     
  18. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    Well, now I would like to ask you if you believe that all three persons called God, separate yet equal, none of them (you believe) were created, they just were always there, -- were they all three in heaven when you say Jesus was Jehovah in the flesh? You know, like Father, Son, and holy spirit when Jesus, you say, was Jehovah in the flesh, were all three godpersons all in heaven at that time?
     
  19. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    What a sad rebuttal. Besides, to twist that to say that when Jesus said he and the Father are one as if Jesus means he IS the Father is a real twist. And to me, that is just sad.
     
  20. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    One.


    Why? It wasn't me who claimed John 10:30 was a sentence fragment. It wasn't I who claimed John 10:30 didn't contain a complete thought, and it certainly not I who engages in baseless, unwarranted ad hominem attacks because an argument didn't go as expected.

    Look, I understand you've done badly here but we all have to grow and learn. For some reason you thought John 10:30 was a sentence fragment. Your insistence on asking "what" at the end of John 10:30 made you miss the forest for the trees. I gave you a road map, even pointed you to someone more favorable to your position, yet you still ask the same question even after it's been answered....two or three times already.

    There is no one what. There is agreement.
     
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