1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Watchtower Governing Body: Are They The Exclusive Channel For God??

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by katiemygirl, Dec 28, 2014.

  1. katiemygirl

    katiemygirl CHRISTIAN

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2011
    Messages:
    2,038
    Ratings:
    +513
    Religion:
    CHRISTIAN
    I'm posting my answer to you again from yesterday Bible Student because my post got buried, and I wanted to be sure you saw it. Here it is.

    Thank you for answering my questions Bible Student. I can't say whether the 144,000 is literal or symbolic. I think a literal or figurative interpretation is possible. I really don't have the answer.

    I think I read in one of your posts to Mountain Climber that you also believe the 144,000 are all male virgins? I assume you also believe they are all from the 12 tribes of Israel, and there are literally 12,000 from each tribe? Please correct me if I am wrong.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  2. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2015
    Messages:
    3,058
    Ratings:
    +776
    Religion:
    Christian
    "Small error in WORDS"? You are talking about the Word of God, about a persons eternity. How can you place so little concern on peoples eternity? "Stumble a bit in their wording"??!!

    Mat 12:34-37 (ESVST) . 35 The good person out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure brings forth evil. 36 I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, 37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."


    I really think the way the WTS tries to cover up their false teachings with, "WE ARE IMPERFECT", we never claim to be "INFALLIBLE" is detestable. I agree that mankind is not perfect, we do make mistakes, but God doesn't. If God is "DIRECTING" the GB how can God be wrong? Why would God keep using a "NON BIBLICAL" slave that doesn't understand what he is saying to them? Why would God let a false teaching be believed for 100 years?

    This is why
    2Th 2:8-12 (ESVST) 9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    3 For a number of years, we thought that the great tribulation began in 1914 with World War I and that “those days were cut short” by Jehovah in 1918 when the war ended so that the remnant would have the opportunity to preach the good news to all nations. Watchtower July 15, 2013

    For a number of years? How about almost 100 years! It wasn't just "THOUGHT" it was "TAUGHT" as a "TRUTH" worldwide. And how many JW's lives were ruined for not accepting this "TRUTH"? Oh, but the light got brighter and after 100 years they (the GB) finally understood what Christendom (satans organization) was teaching for a 100 years. Why did the JW's God have to play catch up with His "ONLY CHANNEL" into the world while satans organization was teaching the "TRUTH" all along?

    19 In review, what have we learned? In the beginning of this article, we raised three “when” questions. We first considered that the great tribulation did not begin in 1914 but will start when the United Nations attacks Babylon the Great. Then, we reviewed why Jesus’ judgment of the sheep and the goats did not begin in 1914 but will occur during the great tribulation. Finally, we examined why Jesus’ arrival to appoint the faithful slave over all his belongings did not occur in 1919 but will take place during the great tribulation. So, then, all three “whens” apply to the same future time period—the great tribulation. How does this adjusted view further affect our understanding of the illustration of the faithful slave? Watchtower July 15, 2013
     
  3. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2015
    Messages:
    3,058
    Ratings:
    +776
    Religion:
    Christian
    Please explain what you mean by "SPIRITUAL SENSE". I thought the JW's believe that humans don't have a spirit.

    Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.” (The Hebrew word here translated “spirit” is a derivative of ruʹach. Some translators render it “breath.” When that ruʹach, or active life-force, leaves the body, the person’s thoughts perish; they do not continue in another realm.) (Reasoning from the Scriptures pages 382-383?
     
  4. Nada

    Nada #

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2014
    Messages:
    4,467
    Ratings:
    +973
    Religion:
    #
    Hi Katiemygirl.Yes I did post an answer to Mountain Climber.But I do not believe the 144,000 are all literal male virgins.
    The holy scriptures shows that both men and women, who receive holy spirit, are in this group.Like the ones who were present during the Pentecost of 33 C.E. Mary was amongst these.When it mentions them being virgins,it never says they are males.

    Revelation 14:4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.

    This is symbolic language.From reading this right out,one would assume it literally is speaking of sexual relations,and since it mentions women,one would also assume that it is men they are speaking of.This is not the case.The women spoken of is false religions.When it states they remained virgins, it is implying that they did not fornicate with her.Follow other gods.



    Here in this verse we can see the same kind of symbolic language being used.It speaks of the governments of the world being in bed with false religions.

    Revelation 17:2
    with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and they that dwell in the earth were made drunken with the wine of her fornication.

    So from this we can see that it is not literal.It is symbolic.

    So these 144,000 will be men and women working together along side Jesus Christ.


    Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in union with Christ Jesus.
     
    #1204 Nada, May 29, 2015
    Last edited: May 29, 2015
  5. Nada

    Nada #

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2014
    Messages:
    4,467
    Ratings:
    +973
    Religion:
    #
    I also believe that the 144,000 are a literal number.
    John gives us a definite number.

    Revelation 7:4
    Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

    Revelation 7:9
    After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language,

    So here we can see that John gives us a definite number first,and then an indefinite number.

    From this we can gather that the 144,000 is a literal number.

    Ps.Here is a part of an explanation from a source pertaining to this very subject.


    "If the number 144,000 were symbolic and referred to a group that is actually numberless, the force of the contrast between those two verses would be lost. Thus, the context strongly indicates that the number 144,000 must be taken literally."

    If you want to read it in full go tho this link and read the first 3 paragraphs under the heading.

    LIBRARY
     
  6. Nada

    Nada #

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2014
    Messages:
    4,467
    Ratings:
    +973
    Religion:
    #
    There are actually 12 literal fleshly tribes, and 12 spiritual tribes. The first were actually 13 tribes.The tribe of Levi was the 13th,but they did not inherit the land promised by Jehovah, to the other 12 tribes, for they were priestly tribe.Their inheritance was Jehovah.So they did not count as a tribe of land inheritance.So it was 12 fleshly Tribes.

    This will explain it further.

    "14 In harmony with this, when writing to anointed Christians of the first century, the disciple James addressed his letter to “the twelve tribes that are scattered about.” (James 1:1; Revelation 7:3-8) Of course, citizens of the new Israel were not assigned to specific tribes. There was no division into 12 distinct tribes in spiritual Israel as there had been in fleshly Israel. Nevertheless, James’ inspired expression indicates that in Jehovah’s sight the Israel of God had completely replaced the 12 tribes of natural Israel. If a natural-born Israelite became part of the new nation, his fleshly descent—even if he was of the tribe of Judah or Levi—had no significance.—Galatians 3:28; Philippians 3:5, 6."

    WOL


    Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in union with Christ Jesus.

    This verse I just showed you here also shows us how all anointed christians, from all the tribes of Israel, will be part of the 144,000.Male and female, because there is no distinction.

    Revelation 7:4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
     
    #1206 Nada, May 29, 2015
    Last edited: May 29, 2015
  7. katiemygirl

    katiemygirl CHRISTIAN

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2011
    Messages:
    2,038
    Ratings:
    +513
    Religion:
    CHRISTIAN
    Thanks Bible Student. Would you agree then that if the 144,000 is a literal number (and I don't know if it is or isn't), then the 12,000 must also be literal as 12,000 X 12,000 is 144,000? And wouldn't we have to conclude that each group of 12,000 were from the 12 tribes listed? I get what you said about the tribe of Levi, but it seems if we take the 144,000 literally, we have to take the 12,000 literally also. I mean God must have put this in His word for a reason, right? He specifically says that the sealed are from every tribe of the sons of Israel.

    About the 144,000 anointed class, they are those who are sealed with the Holy Spirit? Were they sealed when they were born again? What about the rest of the JW's? Are they born again? Sealed?
     
    #1207 katiemygirl, May 29, 2015
    Last edited: May 29, 2015
  8. Nada

    Nada #

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2014
    Messages:
    4,467
    Ratings:
    +973
    Religion:
    #
    Yes,the 144,000 are those who are sealed,anointed.

    Yes,they were sealed after they had received the word about God,then baptized in water as a public display of their dedication to God,and then later being blessed with the holy spirit.

    No,not all of whom is known to us today as the Jehovahs Witnesses are part of this group of the 144,000.Just some.That is why when ever you attend a memorial service(the passing of the bread and wine)you will almost never ever see one of these participating in the eating and drinking of the emblem's.In my entire life I have only seen one person do this.This was way back in 84.So the answer is no.Not all JW's are born again.Only those who are born from water and spirit are born again.Like those at the Pentecost of 33 C.E.

    This will explain further.

    Born Again — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
     
    #1208 Nada, May 29, 2015
    Last edited: May 29, 2015
  9. Nada

    Nada #

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2014
    Messages:
    4,467
    Ratings:
    +973
    Religion:
    #
    Yes,the 12,000 in the OT were literal.You take the 12 tribes x 12,000 men from each tribe=144,000

    it is not 12,000 x 12,000 That =144,000,000 (144 Million)

    In the NT the Spiritual 12 tribes replaced the 12 fleshly tribes.
    " If a natural-born Israelite became part of the new nation, his fleshly descent—even if he was of the tribe of Judah or Levi—had no significance.Galatians 3:28; Philippians 3:5, 6."'

    WOL
     
  10. Mountain_Climber

    Mountain_Climber Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2015
    Messages:
    938
    Ratings:
    +148
    Religion:
    What I do to honor God and serve my fellow.
    No, I never said that Jehovah's Witnesses believe these were all male virgins, Looking back I see that in my post 1178 I was a bit ambiguous with my simple answer of, "No", when you asked me that question, and I suppose it could be understood as I was speaking for only myself.

    I meant, "No, Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe the 144,00 is all male virgins."

    It does appear I failed to give your question the attention it deserved and for that I apologize

    The key, katie, is that you likely drew that by my saying that the 144,000 correspond to Adam. And shame on me for failing to be more clear about that.

    Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man[kind] in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
    27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    The 144,000 correspond to the one body of Adam and Eve. When Eve commanded her children, they were to see her as speaking for Adam their father. His law went forth through her.

    Thus we have the reason why, in relation to Jesus the Christ, that the 144,000 are figuratively all female virgins.

    This gender is not about sex any more than is the use of gender in grammar.
     
  11. Mountain_Climber

    Mountain_Climber Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2015
    Messages:
    938
    Ratings:
    +148
    Religion:
    What I do to honor God and serve my fellow.
    Do they really? Or might that be only in your mind?

    I know a young woman who gave up what she believed as a JW, in favor of what here husband believes and I know enough about the situation to know she just made a deliberate choice in herself that which one was right or wrong did not matter to her so long as she did not lose her husband.

    But then that husband was a second husband, a childhood sweat heart whom she left the father of her children in order to reclaim.

    Now, I could see the masterful deceptions and games she played on herself to find a way to justify all this to herself. And I know that when that foolishly imagined greener grass burns, then is when she will pay the piper in terms of inner torment. Even as looking on I see that torment rearing it's head from spot to spot in their relationship and already causing trouble in spurts.

    I mention that only because I cannot help but notice that many of her self-justifications were remarkably similar to the ill-founded comments you there made.
     
    #1211 Mountain_Climber, May 29, 2015
    Last edited: May 29, 2015
  12. Mountain_Climber

    Mountain_Climber Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2015
    Messages:
    938
    Ratings:
    +148
    Religion:
    What I do to honor God and serve my fellow.
    I think you need to resign from the judge's bench. :)

    When you speak of those who have died from their refusal to accept blood transfusions you conveniently ignore a few valid things which must be taken into consideration.

    One is that the ratio of Witnesses who have died from refusal to accept blood transfusions is actually less than the ratio of people who have died due to bad results from having accepted blood transfusions.

    Two is that some of those Witnesses who did die, died more because treatment was delayed to them by doctors and hospitals who refused to use alternative forms of treatment and so shipped them off elsewhere, delaying their treatment.

    And three is that Jehovah's witnesses do leave it up to one's conscience as to whether their members are willing to accept blood volume replacements which have the basic critical components extracted from blood mixed into them.

    You are not a fair and impartial judge.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    37,568
    Ratings:
    +4,208
    Religion:
    An X-Jehovah's Witness
    To do good to someone is to love them. The governing body have taught that they are Jesus' brothers who we must do good to to be declared righteous by The King at his returning. Matthew 25: 34 - 40. Am I making myself clear?
     
  14. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    37,568
    Ratings:
    +4,208
    Religion:
    An X-Jehovah's Witness
    Are you kidding me? I judge no one. The governing body by proxy judges everyone. Please, wake up!
     
  15. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    37,568
    Ratings:
    +4,208
    Religion:
    An X-Jehovah's Witness
    These are straw men. ONE child stumbled by anyone and it would be better for that person to have been drowned in the deep blue see. We are talking about Jesus' words. Are we not? It seems to me that somehow you have been persuaded to put JW words ahead of The Word.


    Testing? Testing? LOL Are you testing us? I mean me.
     
  16. Mountain_Climber

    Mountain_Climber Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2015
    Messages:
    938
    Ratings:
    +148
    Religion:
    What I do to honor God and serve my fellow.
    There the word spirit simply means, "breath of life". Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." So, yes, It is an active life force. And it is pure conjecture beyond anything that is written in scripture which claims that spirit is anything more than that. If one steps outside the scriptures into the opinions of men then they find support for believing that this application of ru'ach may have been more than that. But even then, some of these opinions can be understood to merely mean that this same life force empowers our brain so that in our brains as the result of a elector-chemical action it stimulates we have born to our brains the capacity for a consciousness and reasoning. And that is not at all to say this consciousness and reasoning capability becomes contained in that ru'ach, but merely born of it. Thus when the ru'ach leaves consciousness and reasoning cease.

    But the word, spirit, is used about seven or so different ways in the scriptures based upon it's root meaning, "breath, as a wind, as something invisible known only by the work it accomplishes."

    N f1 )  ( NSh-MH ) —
    Breath: [Hebrew and Aramaic] [ar:
    amvn] [freq. 25] |kjv: breath, blast,
    spirit, inspiration, soul| {str: 5396,
    5397}


    I will put together something to help you understand what I mean by, "SPIRITUAL SENSE".

    It won't be this minute but I will get around to it.
     
  17. Mountain_Climber

    Mountain_Climber Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2015
    Messages:
    938
    Ratings:
    +148
    Religion:
    What I do to honor God and serve my fellow.
    That is another summary of a verse the untaught and unsteady easily can misapply.

    That refers to those who skillfully and deliberately hide God's critical life-saving truths from people in their stubbornness to have things their own preferred way and lead others along with them so as to draw comfort by not being alone in their rebellious attitudes. Sort of a, "Misery loves company", situation.

    But many who have compromised their faith use it as a general excuse for their being stumbled (usually haughtily thinking to themselves, "If I indeed be stumbled").

    The truth is that the major portion of the responsibility for our not being stumbled, (especially after having tasted the truth), rests upon our owns heads.
     
  18. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    37,568
    Ratings:
    +4,208
    Religion:
    An X-Jehovah's Witness
    HOW do you know that is what he meant. Surely you are not Jesus?
     
  19. Mountain_Climber

    Mountain_Climber Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2015
    Messages:
    938
    Ratings:
    +148
    Religion:
    What I do to honor God and serve my fellow.
    The day you learn to understand that your troubles will be fewer.
     
  20. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    37,568
    Ratings:
    +4,208
    Religion:
    An X-Jehovah's Witness
    No! Not "people", "little ones". he said "little one putting faith in me". Your argument does not work.
     
Loading...