Watchtower Governing Body: Are They The Exclusive Channel For God??

[savagewind]

You raise a good point Katzpur. But isnt it true that even with governments, we still have a degree of Chaos?

Can you imagine what it must be like to live in Iraq or Syria or Egypt at the moment? Those countries have governments, and yet chaos reigns.

What does it tell you about human government?

The Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses IS a human government. The governing body members interpret scripture as they see fit and then everyone obeys their decrees. It is called "reasoning from the scriptures". It is NOT called, hearing from the king, Jesus Christ. If it was Heaven's Government they would be hearing from Heaven but they don't. It appears in all Christianity Jesus has nothing to say which is universes away from being believable but people do believe that the king does not speak. And that is where I live. It is so sad it has become funny.

Another thought I had about it is the weirdness of the way they find things out. They say The Holy Spirit directs them into the truth. But they say that we shall die believing Jesus Christ is The Holy Spirit. So where is Jesus Christ in the Jehovah's Witness arrangement? The Holy Sprit guides the minds of the governing body and they guide the minds of the great multitude. The Bible says there is just one leader Matthew 23:10 and just one Lord Ephesians 4:5. Their lord is The Holy Spirit which guides the guides who guides the rest. What does Jesus do please?

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Jehovah selects them personally.

And you know that how? Because the men say it? Are you present when God chooses them? What is the sign God has made His choice?

 

[savagewind]

And you know that how? Because the men say it? Are you present when God chooses them? What is the sign God has made His choice?

These are good questions. They know God has chosen them because of the peace, order and productivity of the Christian Congregation of JWs. But they know that the peace, order and productivity of all other Christian groups is a trick of the devil. Is that bashing?

 

[katiemygirl]

Jehovah selects them personally.

God has selected ALL of mankind to be born again, sealed, anointed, etc. Peter preached on Pentecost that ALL who repent and are baptized receive remission of sins and THE GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

The burden of proof is on Watchtower and its followers to show that the 144,000 mentioned only twice in the entire Bible is a literal number as opposed to figurative among a plethora of figurative language.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

I would encourage you to mediate on why Jesus addressed some of his disciples as his 'little flock' but others as the 'other sheep' ...what makes these two groups different? Who are they? Do some digging around in the bible because the answers are there.

If you had 12 sheep (little flock) and went and bought (Jesus' ransom) more sheep, would you then have 2 completely different groups (flocks) of sheep, or would you have "ONE" flock? The sheep you went to buy were not of the fold you already have. But when you bring them all together, they are now "ONE" fold.

John 10:15-16 (ESVST) 16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

There's not a "LITTLE FLOCK" and "OTHER SHEEP" as in 2 separate flocks or groups. Jesus said "I have other sheep", He was brining them all together to be "ONE" flock. If the "OTHER SHEEP" were not part of the "LITTLE FLOCK" wouldn't that make "2" flocks of sheep? Jesus said "so there will be "ONE" flock.

 

[Pegg]

He does. And as the authority of both places, it gives Him the prerogative as to where He chooses to rule from and when! The scriptures plainly state He will eventually make earth His dwelling place. Now please answer the question that you've been dodging for several days-- Utilizing the law of non-contradiction, find me two scriptures that contradict the fact Jesus could and would never dwell or rule from the earth?

Consider this... if Jesus is higher then all the holy angels in heaven, and they all come under his authority as we do, how will h8s authority be expressed in heaven if he has to lower himself by heading down to Jerusalem to be become a speck of dust as we are? How can a physical Jesus be at Gods right hand in heaven if he is down here on earth?
How will he have a hand in what goes on in heaven if he his made into a human again?

This is one reason why i think an earthly rulership is not likely. If there was ever another rebellion in heaven among the angels, what could an earthly king do about it?
And seeing Jesus leads the angels of God and directs them, why would he leave that exulted position to come back and live as a man again?

And more importantly he is Gods only begotton Son. Their relationship is unique and extremely close. Why would Jesus want to leave his Father to come down here?

 

[djhwoodwerks]

They know God has chosen them because of the peace, order and productivity of the Christian Congregation of JWs.

"They "THINK" God has chosen them because of the peace, order and productivity of the Christian Congregation of JW's."

2Co 11:12-15 (ESVST) . 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

 

[savagewind]

"They "THINK" God has chosen them because of the peace, order and productivity of the Christian Congregation of JW's."

2Co 11:12-15 (ESVST) . 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

Yes, there is a difference between thinking and knowing. And you should be aware of that yourself. OK?

 

[djhwoodwerks]

This is one reason why i think an earthly rulership is not likely. If there was ever another rebellion in heaven among the angels, what could an earthly king do about it?
And seeing Jesus leads the angels of God and directs them, why would he leave that exulted position to come back and live as a man again?

Where is "MAN" going to be? Where ever that is, is where God's going to be! So if you want to stick with your story of everyone except the 144,000 will be on earth, then God will be on earth. But if you want to say that God will be in heaven, the your story of everyone living on earth will be refuted because man will be with God.

Rev 21:1-3 (ESVST) . 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, " Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.

 

[james2ko]

Pegg may have not seen your question. She is usually very good at answering all questions. You might want to try reposting your question to her. Pegg and I may disagree on many things, but in my book, she is the most reasonable and forthcoming JW I've come across on forums.

Oh she sees my posts. She just doesn't know what to say or how to respond. If she does respond, she will either ask a frivolous question or make a non-sensical comment like: "The bible says spirits don't have any form.... so they certainly dont look like us or any other creature on the earth". I'm not sure where that response came from because I know she believes angels can take the form and countenance of humans. I suspect it was a knee jerk remark. As can be expected with someone experiencing cognitive dissonance.

I love Pegg. She is one of the better examples of JW's I have encountered. She is true to her organization's beliefs, as unbiblical as some of them are. Only major problem I have is the organization's elitist attitude toward their Christian neighbors. It is eerily similar to that of the 1st century religious establishment.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Yes, there is a difference between thinking and knowing. And you should be aware of that yourself. OK?

I am aware of the difference. They can't "KNOW" God has chosen them, they can only "BELIEVE" what they are told by the GB. And they can't prove anything the GB says to be truth.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

"The bible says spirits don't have any form.... so they certainly dont look like us or any other creature on the earth".

It seems like the JW's view spirits as puffs of smoke or a puddle of water floating around space where there is no gravity.

John 2:18-21 (ESVST) ?" 19 Jesus answered them, " Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." 20 The Jews then said, " It has taken forty- six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?" 21 But he was speaking about the temple of his body.

Luke 24:38-39 (ESVST) 38 And he said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."

Jesus said He would raise His "BODY" in 3 days. When Jesus said, "that it is I myself" He was speaking of His own body that He raised from the dead. If He was raised in another body, or in Spirit form, He would have been lying when He said "IT IS I MYSELF" and Jesus doesn't lie!

 

[savagewind]

I am aware of the difference. They can't "KNOW" God has chosen them, they can only "BELIEVE" what they are told by the GB. And they can't prove anything the GB says to be truth.

And you can't KNOW you are right. Get it?

 

[djhwoodwerks]

And you can't KNOW you are right. Get it?

I'm not implying no one can know they are right, I'm saying that JW's can't know they are right because they believe and think what the GB tells them. And everyone knows that according to Proverbs 4:18, their truth can change at any time, so how can they know anything? How can they know what they are being taught is right?

 

[savagewind]

I'm not implying no one can know they are right, I'm saying that JW's can't know they are right because they believe and think what the GB tells them. And everyone knows that according to Proverbs 4:18, their truth can change at any time, so how can they know anything? How can they know what they are being taught is right?

The very same way you can "know". I am not saying you do not know some things. I am saying just like them you believe you KNOW some things, but you don't. I shall give you an example. You seem to "know" I have nothing of substance to add to this debacle. Am I right?

 

[james2ko]

Consider this... if Jesus is higher then all the holy angels in heaven, and they all come under his authority as we do, how will h8s authority be expressed in heaven if he has to lower himself by heading down to Jerusalem to be become a speck of dust as we are? How can a physical Jesus be at Gods right hand in heaven if he is down here on earth? How will he have a hand in what goes on in heaven if he his made into a human again? This is one reason why i think an earthly rulership is not likely. If there was ever another rebellion in heaven among the angels, what could an earthly king do about it? And seeing Jesus leads the angels of God and directs them, why would he leave that exulted position to come back and live as a man again?

He will not return as flesh and blood, He will return with the body given to him at His resurrection, which He displayed to His disciples. He looked and felt human, yet He was able to walk through walls and appear and disappear instantaneously. There is no human term to accurately describe it. I like to think of it as a "hybrid" body fit for both realms--heaven and earth.

And more importantly he is Gods only begotton Son. Their relationship is unique and extremely close. Why would Jesus want to leave his Father to come down here?

If He left His Father temporarily to come to earth once, why should it be a problem for Him to do it again? Christ will actually pave the way for the Father to be able to dwell in a sinless environment.

After Christ's 1,000 reign with His saints and the culmination of his judgment of all humans, all authority and power will be abolished. The earth and its atmosphere will be transformed to something new (Rev 21:1). The New Jerusalem will descend from heaven and make its way to the new earth (Rev 21:2-3) After which Christ will deliver the kingdom to the Father (1 Co 15:24) and The Father Himself will dwell with the hybrid men/spirit beings in the New Jerusalem:

Rev 21:2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. ​

In addition to the good news of Jesus Christ and His salvation, this is the part of the exuberating gospel that emphasizes the kingdom of God. It all fits together like a glove, Pegg. The proverbial Heaven on earth will become a reality. May God speed that day!

 

[savagewind]

He will not return as flesh and blood, He will return with the body given to him at His resurrection, which He displayed to His disciples. He looked and felt human, yet He was able to walk through walls and appear and disappear instantaneously. There is no human term to accurately describe it. I like to think of it as a "hybrid" body fit for both realms--heaven and earth.

Do you know if he has come back or not come back?

 

[james2ko]

Do you know if he has come back or not come back?

According to scripture, He has not returned to earth.

 

[savagewind]

According to scripture, He has not returned to earth.

Is it because scripture says he will return with a big show and the big show has not happened yet, according to you?

 

[djhwoodwerks]

He will not return as flesh and blood, He will return with the body given to him at His resurrection, which He displayed to His disciples. He looked and felt human, yet He was able to walk through walls and appear and disappear instantaneously. There is no human term to accurately describe it. I like to think of it as a "hybrid" body fit for both realms--heaven and earth.

I believe this to be 100% accurate! Jesus was able to appear and disappear with a body of flesh and bones.

Luke 24:36 (ESVST) 36 As they were talking about these things, Jesus "himself" stood among them, and said to them, " Peace to you!"

Luke 24:38-39 (ESVST) "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."