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Watchtower Bible & Tract Society

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by t3gah, Dec 24, 2004.

?
  1. Yes

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  2. No

    10 vote(s)
    62.5%
  3. I'm not sure

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  4. Who cares?!

    1 vote(s)
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  5. Don't believe in God

    5 vote(s)
    31.3%
  1. t3gah

    t3gah Well-Known Member

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    1943, Watch Tower Vice President Frederick W. Franz, and President Nathan H. Knorr provided the following testimony under oath in a court of law:

    Cross-examination of Frederick W. Franz
    (Olin Moyle v. WTB&TS, 1943, Sections #2596-2597, p. 866.)

    Q. At any rate, Jehovah God is now the editor of the paper, is that right?
    A. He is today the editor of the paper.

    Q. How long has He been editor of the paper?
    A. Since its inception he has been guiding it.

    Cross-examination of Nathan Homer Knorr
    (Olin Moyle v. WTB&TS, 1943, Section #4421, p. 1474.)

    Q. In fact, it is set forth directly as God's Word, isn't it?
    A. Yes, as His word.

    Q. Without any qualification whatsoever?
    A. That is right.


    Fred W. Franz (Watchtower Bible & Tract Society Governing Body and later Watchtower Bible & Tract Society President) stated on oath in a court of Law that "Jehovah God was the editor of the Watchtower Magazine since it's inception."
    (New York King's County Clerk's Court Record, 1940, vol. 2, page 795)

    Fred W. Franz repeated this claim in 1943.
    (Olin R. Moyle, v F.W. Franz, et al. Libel suit testimony, May 10th to May 27th, 1943, New York Supreme Court, Appellate Division: sections 2596 & 2597)

    Nathan H. Knorr, while president of the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society, stated under oath in a court of law that "The Watch Tower is set forth directly as God's Word."
    (Olin R. Moyle, v F.W. Franz, et al. Libel suit testimony, May 10th to May 27th, 1943, New York Supreme Court, Appellate Division: sections 4420 & 4421)
     
  2. LittleNipper

    LittleNipper Well-Known Member

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    This is the reason I am a Christian and do not consider Jehovah Witnesses as such. The Bible is the inspired Word of GOD and it is a closed revelation. I do believe GOD works in peoples lives but that is not the same as GOD adding scripture. Scripture can influence what a Christian writes and personal events can influence what a Christian writes, but that is not direct dictation nor does it add to the finished work of the Bible. This only affords the Christian the ability to have a heart towards those he is expected to bring the Light of the Gospel to.
     
  3. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    The WB&TS is not in any way an agent of God. I try to stay as far away as possible.
     
  4. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Magazine has pretty illustrations, though....
     
  5. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    That it certainly does.
     
  6. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    I completely agree.

    The Watchtower and Awake! are not additions of the Bible. These are simply aids for the Bible to help us understand the Bible better. Just like an encyclopaedia helps up understand general knowledge via the use of simple explanations and illustrations, these publications do the same.

    These publications in no way, shape, or form are additions/replacements for the Bible. The Bible will and always be the primary source when we learn about God.

    We have not added anything to the Bible.
     
  7. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    You obviously don't think so. So who are you suggesting is? God via the Apostle Paul clearly said only one religion on this earth would represent him:

    Ephesians 4:4-6: "One body there is, and one spirit, even as YOU were called in the one hope to which YOU were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all [persons], who is over all and through all and in all."

    This clearly leaves no room for self-revelation and multi-denominations thinking that all roads lead to God. Also, Jesus also said that only a few would find the true faith:

    Matthew 7:13-14: “Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it."

    Where does the faithful and discreet slave of Jehovah's Witnesses fit into all of this? Jesus said that he would apoint "a faithful slave" over all of his belongings on earth to represent HIS faith (i.e. the one true religion):

    Matthew 24:45: "Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I say to YOU, He will appoint him over all his belongings."

    Is the faithful and discreet of Jehoavh's Witnesses giving us our food (spiritual food) like the above verses mention? Yes. Up to now, over 15,000,000,000 peices of literature had been given to mankind to proclaim the coming of God's Kingdom and also addressing world events in a timely manner.


    Any further questions and I will be happy to answer them.
     
  8. t3gah

    t3gah Well-Known Member

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    Yes, yes. It's very interesting that the scriptures state one lord, one faith, etc. But just how is the world supposed to know that the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses are them that are they in the scriptures?

    Few are the ones finding it doesn't necessarily mean that the congreagtions of JW"s are the few.

    Lots of print. Many other denominations of "Christians" are doing the same things in their own special ways. I must point out that the original disciples and apostles just used the scrolls and some letters which is what the bible is, not millions of documents. And "one faith" means "Christian". Which is what the rest are according to the dictionary which is an authority.

    Which reminds me. This is a poll and a discussion, not a debate like your thread "Ask...", so please don't get off topic.
     
  9. t3gah

    t3gah Well-Known Member

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    Calculations

    Jehovah's Witnesses have printed 15,000,000,000 pieces of literature so far.
    Spanned 1879 to 2005. Changed from International Bible Students to Jehovah's Witnesses.

    From 1 to 6.5 million JWs in over 100 years

    Currently there are approximately 6.5 billion people on the planet including JWs.

    So using the JW modern method of teaching, that would mean that you JWs need 45,000,000,000,000,000 pieces of literature to turn the world.

    I used my abacus to calculate the figure above so there could be a small margin of error.

    Jesus, the apostles and the disciples had just the scrolls and their letters to each other.

    Is God directing the work or men? God would have the whole world coverted in 100+ years by now. So if you have any questions about Jehovah's Witnesses feel free to private message WitnessofJah or go to his thread "Ask about Jehovah's Witnesses". If however you have questions about the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society responses to court questions or the poll on this thread, feel free to post a reply with your comments or questions here.

    Answer the poll before you go please.


    Thanks and have a great day at ReligiousForums.com!! :)
     
  10. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    Who is your candidate for the correct faith? You seem to speak with so much conviction that you must have some kind of inclination to who Jesus disciples today are. A poll in a religious sub-forum is not going to answer your question.

    Good point - at least you agree that a few will find the truth...so why did you do a calculation to how long it would take JW to convert the entire planet (not exactly a few)?
     
  11. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    ** Moved to Debate Forum **
     
  12. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

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    WIth respect on how I have viewed Jehovahs Witnesses, I would say they are far from Jesus disciples. My family was broken up because a few of my great uncles became jehovahs witnesses. We were not allowed to see them, speak to them, they were not allowed to come to their neices funeral, etc... What kind of love is that? And I may be wrong but isn't jesus' main message LOVE??!!?? Also, all of the Jehovahs witness friends I have had hated their parents because EVERYTHING they did was evil. Every person they met who wasn't jehovahs witness was evil. I once tried to have a conversation with my friends Dad, and he came right out and asked if I was Christian. I asked why would that matter, he said right to my face. "I just want to know if I'm talking to someone worth saving thats all." I did a double take and said "sorry, I thought you would be a little like jesus and love everyone. But I forgot, jehovahs witnesses aren't christian." And he started screaming at me and his son saying I had to leave his house. Not very nice people. Of course, I could be mistaken and I almost possitive there are good and bad people in every religion. I suspect Jehovahs Witnesses are no different. I just never met any who were like jesus.
     
  13. t3gah

    t3gah Well-Known Member

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    The answer to this question is obvious. The true Christians are those who are adhering to all of the scriptures. The Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses tried to determine when the end would come. And note that they stopped doing so only due to peer pressure from the public of non-Christians. Most people chalk that up to imperfection and note that even the apostles and disciples made mistakes. This is true, however, none of them tried to figure out when the end was coming. I suspect that partly due to the fact that they actually listened to what Jesus said when asked about the Last Days.

    The poll... yes... the poll... hrm... what to do about that?! Well, since it is a poll to see what the rest of the world thinks and will be running here forever, unless the admins or moderators lock it down, then it will be a monument to those who are in search of the truth. Why does the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses look up data of the same kind for the Watchtower's and Awake! magazines? Why bother with polls and statistics. To get a better view of public opinion. A poll is a poll, of course, of course.


    [World English Bible] 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    Th Catholics believe they are the truth and the true faith, and so do many other denominations. I suppose the ones that have truly anointed people that can say, expel demons is the true faith because Jesus didn't corelate doing that to abuse of power as he did in Matthew 4:1-10 with the stones, etc.

    The governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses tell their parishioners in the congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses to go to a doctor or psychiatrist if they need medical attention. Odd is what I think of that because all anointed people in the New Testament cured people of their sicknesses. I find this thing alarming that the Governing Body would half believe and practice the "Love thy neighbor as thyself" part and not help their fellow brothers and sisters by curing them or expelling the demons.

    There's even a Watchtower brochure that states that a woman suffered hearing voices in her head for 18 years. Surely the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses have enough compassion like the rest of the human race on the planet who believe they too are Christians enough to help this poor woman. Why, oh why would they let her suffer for so long is what I wonder. Jesus and the disciples expelled demons left and right. They didn't say "well, if God wants them possessed then we'll just leave it that way and tell them to pray to Jehovah for help since we, the Governing Body, will not interfere." Which is what it seems like to the outsiders. What earthly reason could there be to letting people suffer like that? I noticed that there wasn't one mention of the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses trying to help her in any way on print. And I've noticed that many documents published by the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society also state to go to a Mental Health expert or Medical Doctor if youa re ill. Strange, strange, strange that the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses won't lift a finger to help the ones with the "earthly hope". Very sad. :mad:
     
  14. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

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    And how would they expell demons? If your talking about those healing things have you ever heard of the placebo effect? Many MANY people have sued because they are cured for an evening or week or so. But then the affects come back. Have you ever done some research in abnormal psychology? It's funny if you look at the history. Back in the stone age times, the shaman would chip away at the skull trying to "expell demons." Then we see the ancient greeks taking a medical point of view and hippocrates stated it was an imbalance of fluids. But then in medieval times it went back to "expelling demons again". And the clergy were the only ones able to do that. But now thankfully we are back on the right track. With medically trained psychologists and psychiatrists that can properly and successfully treat mental disorders. And plus, there are many medically trained doctors who successfully treat ailments that no amount of "expelling demons" can achieve.
     
  15. t3gah

    t3gah Well-Known Member

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    You see the anointed people in the bible, the apostles, jesus and the disciples all expelled demons. The accounts are listed as such in the scriptures. The Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses have stated that they are of the heavenly class and are anointed by God. They say they are receiving instructions from God directly to their minds. Since anointed persons in the New Testament cured people of their sicknesses, expelled demons and even raised the dead. My point here is "Why isn't the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses following suit?" Why aren't they doing what Jesus commanded the apostles and disciples to do? Jehovah's Witnesses say they are following the scriptures implicitly. If that is so, why isn't the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses doing the same as the congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses? Why aren't those who are in charge of the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society listening to a direct command from Jesus Christ the founder of Christianity?

    Matthew 8:16 When evening came, they brought to him many possessed with demons. He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick;


    Matthew 9:32 As they went out, behold, a mute man who was demon possessed was brought to him. 9:33 When the demon was cast out, the mute man spoke. The multitudes marveled, saying, “Nothing like this has ever been seen in Israel!”


    Matthew 10:1 He called to himself his twelve disciples, and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every sickness.

    10:5 Jesus sent these twelve out, and commanded them, saying, “Don’t go among the Gentiles, and don’t enter into any city of the Samaritans. 10:6 Rather, go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 10:7 As you go, preach, saying, ‘The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!’ 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers*, and cast out demons. Freely you received, so freely give.


    Matthew 17:14 When they came to the multitude, a man came to him, kneeling down to him, saying, 17:15 “Lord, have mercy on my son, for he is epileptic, and suffers grievously; for he often falls into the fire, and often into the water. 17:16 So I brought him to your disciples, and they could not cure him.”

    17:17 Jesus answered, “Faithless and perverse generation! How long will I be with you? How long will I bear with you? Bring him here to me.” 17:18 Jesus rebuked him, the demon went out of him, and the boy was cured from that hour.

    17:19 Then the disciples came to Jesus privately, and said, “Why weren’t we able to cast it out?”

    17:20 He said to them, “Because of your unbelief. For most certainly I tell you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will tell this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.


    Mark 1:34 He healed many who were sick with various diseases, and cast out many demons. He didn’t allow the demons to speak, because they knew him.


    Mark 16:9 Now when he had risen early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons.


    Mark 3:13 He went up into the mountain, and called to himself those whom he wanted, and they went to him. 3:14 He appointed twelve, that they might be with him, and that he might send them out to preach, 3:15 and to have authority to heal sicknesses and to cast out demons:


    Mark 6:7 He called to himself the twelve, and began to send them out two by two; and he gave them authority over the unclean spirits. 6:8 He commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, except a staff only: no bread, no wallet, no money in their purse, 6:9 but to wear sandals, and not put on two tunics. 6:10 He said to them, “Wherever you enter into a house, stay there until you depart from there. 6:11 Whoever will not receive you nor hear you, as you depart from there, shake off the dust that is under your feet for a testimony against them. Assuredly, I tell you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!”

    6:12 They went out and preached that people should repent. 6:13 They cast out many demons, and anointed many with oil who were sick, and healed them.


    Mark 7:24 From there he arose, and went away into the borders of Tyre and Sidon. He entered into a house, and didn’t want anyone to know it, but he couldn’t escape notice. 7:25 For a woman, whose little daughter had an unclean spirit, having heard of him, came and fell down at his feet. 7:26 Now the woman was a Greek, a Syrophoenician by race. She begged him that he would cast the demon out of her daughter. 7:27 But Jesus said to her, “Let the children be filled first, for it is not appropriate to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.”

    7:28 But she answered him, “Yes, Lord. Yet even the dogs under the table eat the children’s crumbs.”

    7:29 He said to her, “For this saying, go your way. The demon has gone out of your daughter.”

    7:30 She went away to her house, and found the child having been laid on the bed, with the demon gone out.
    Matthew 28:18 Jesus came to them and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. 28:19 Go, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 28:20 teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.
     
  16. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

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    I see, so you don't believe they are the anointed ones. Gotcha. Another thing though, could it be that perhaps it is not possible for demons to be expelled, and that could just be a myth made up in the bible?
     
  17. t3gah

    t3gah Well-Known Member

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    Acts 5:12 By the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were done among the people. They were all with one accord in Solomon’s porch. 5:13 None of the rest dared to join them, however the people honored them. 5:14 More believers were added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women. 5:15 They even carried out the sick into the streets, and laid them on cots and mattresses, so that as Peter came by, at the least his shadow might overshadow some of them. 5:16 Multitudes also came together from the cities around Jerusalem, bringing sick people, and those who were tormented by unclean spirits: and they were all healed.


    Acts 8:4 Therefore those who were scattered abroad went around preaching the word. 8:5 Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and proclaimed to them the Christ. 8:6 The multitudes listened with one accord to the things that were spoken by Philip, when they heard and saw the signs which he did. 8:7 For unclean spirits came out of many of those who had them. They came out, crying with a loud voice. Many who had been paralyzed and lame were healed. 8:8 There was great joy in that city.


    Acts 28:7 Now in the neighborhood of that place were lands belonging to the chief man of the island, named Publius, who received us, and courteously entertained us for three days. 28:8 It happened that the father of Publius lay sick of fever and dysentery. Paul entered in to him, prayed, and laying his hands on him, healed him. 28:9 Then when this was done, the rest also who had diseases in the island came, and were cured. 28:10 They also honored us with many honors, and when we sailed, they put on board the things that we needed.


    Luke 13:10 He was teaching in one of the synagogues on the Sabbath day. 13:11 Behold, there was a woman who had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and she was bent over, and could in no way straighten herself up. 13:12 When Jesus saw her, he called her, and said to her, “Woman, you are freed from your infirmity.” 13:13 He laid his hands on her, and immediately she stood up straight, and glorified God.

    13:14 The ruler of the synagogue, being indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, said to the multitude, “There are six days in which men ought to work. Therefore come on those days and be healed, and not on the Sabbath day!”

    13:15 Therefore the Lord answered him, “You hypocrites! Doesn’t each one of you free his ox or his donkey from the stall on the Sabbath, and lead him away to water? 13:16 Ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan had bound eighteen long years, be freed from this bondage on the Sabbath day?”

    13:17 As he said these things, all his adversaries were disappointed, and all the multitude rejoiced for all the glorious things that were done by him.

    (All scriptures from the World English Bible)



    There was great joy in that city.

    The effect on persons in bible times when anointed expelled and cured people was that they became believers themselves. I suppose the 6.5 million would be 600 million or more by now if the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, or the anointed remnant of 144,000 tried to do what Jesus commanded. I guess they can't which means they, the leaders of the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society aren't receiving instructions from God then because why would God circumvent a command that he gave his son Jesus to give to the people?

    Actions speak for themselves.

    Cure, Expell, Raise the dead. = Miracles by prophets associated with God.

    Don't do that and you are mortal men masquerading as 'anointed'.

    I want to see one of the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses act like real disciples of Christ and adhere to the command that Jesus gave in Matthew 28:20 and Romans 13:8 - 13:10.

    Since WitnessofJah is not of the anointed class, he/she and I will go "round robin" with this debate. He cannot possibly speak for them since all he/she knows is what the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society have printed or spoken at conventions.

    What about it, WitnessofJah, is there a document stating why the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses is deliberately contravening an order from the saviour of mankind, the founder of Christianity? The one that showed the world what the real meaning of Love is by curing all and giving the power through anointing to other people that cured as well.

    I find this whole thing so perplexing. It's dumbfounding! The poor, poor people. :(
     
  18. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

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    Quoting scriptures does not validate if scriptures really happened. Is there any proof other than the "stories" written in the bible that such miracles existed? If not, than I suspect it all to be myth. You say actions speak for themselves, but all you have given me is stories of actions that may or may not h ave happened. There is no proof in your post, only opinion. Now, I want your opinion without quoting scripture. What proof is there that thos miracles did indeed happen? And what proof would there be that anyone now could perform miracles, even if back then, they were just stories?
     
  19. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

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    Or perhaps the anointed ones are the ones who ARE "expelling demons" nowadays. Psychologists and psychiatrists. Perhaps because of this proof of effective "expelling of demons" we should all drop the bible and pick up psychology book. Or would you not accept it because the miracles done in science do not coincide with your books stories?
     
  20. t3gah

    t3gah Well-Known Member

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    (All scripture quotes from the World English Bible)

    The bible, which is inspired of God, has more than enough examples in it for those who need proof from those that say they are prophets or anointed by God. Take the example of Elijah. Granted those false prophets were really making their badness known and it was obvious from their actions that they weren't prophets at all, but what Elijah did to prove he was a real anointed prophet through his prayer is a tell that prayer from the chosen can accomplish miracles. So why don't the anointed remnant, or Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses pray to God and expel the demons? Or pray to God and cure the sick? Or pray to God and raise the dead?
    1 Kings 18:15 Elijah said, “As Yahweh of Armies lives, before whom I stand, I will surely show myself to him today.” 18:16 So Obadiah went to meet Ahab, and told him; and Ahab went to meet Elijah. 18:17 It happened, when Ahab saw Elijah, that Ahab said to him, “Is that you, you troubler of Israel?”
    18:18 He answered, “I have not troubled Israel; but you, and your father’s house, in that you have forsaken the commandments of Yahweh, and you have followed the Baals. 18:19 Now therefore send, and gather to me all Israel to Mount Carmel, and four hundred fifty of the prophets of Baal, and four hundred of the prophets of the Asherah, who eat at Jezebel’s table.”

    18:20 So Ahab sent to all the children of Israel, and gathered the prophets together to Mount Carmel. 18:21 Elijah came near to all the people, and said, “How long will you waver between the two sides? If Yahweh is God, follow him; but if Baal, then follow him.”

    The people answered him not a word.

    18:22 Then Elijah said to the people, “I, even I only, am left a prophet of Yahweh; but Baal’s prophets are four hundred fifty men. 18:23 Let them therefore give us two bulls; and let them choose one bull for themselves, and cut it in pieces, and lay it on the wood, and put no fire under; and I will dress the other bull, and lay it on the wood, and put no fire under it. 18:24 You call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of Yahweh. The God who answers by fire, let him be God.”

    All the people answered, “It is well said.”

    18:25 Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, “Choose one bull for yourselves, and dress it first; for you are many; and call on the name of your god, but put no fire under it.”

    18:26 They took the bull which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any who answered. They leaped about the altar which was made. 18:27 It happened at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, “Cry aloud; for he is a god. Either he is musing, or he has gone aside, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he sleeps and must be awakened.”

    18:28 They cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lances, until the blood gushed out on them. 18:29 It was so, when midday was past, that they prophesied until the time of the offering of the offering; but there was neither voice, nor any to answer, nor any who regarded.

    18:30 Elijah said to all the people, “Come near to me;” and all the people came near to him. He repaired the altar of Yahweh that was thrown down. 18:31 Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, to whom the word of Yahweh came, saying, “Israel shall be your name.” 18:32 With the stones he built an altar in the name of Yahweh. He made a trench around the altar, large enough to contain two measures of seed. 18:33 He put the wood in order, and cut the bull in pieces, and laid it on the wood. He said, “Fill four jars with water, and pour it on the burnt offering, and on the wood.” 18:34 He said, “Do it a second time;” and they did it the second time. He said, “Do it a third time;” and they did it the third time. 18:35 The water ran around the altar; and he also filled the trench with water.

    18:36 It happened at the time of the offering of the offering, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, “Yahweh, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that you are God in Israel, and that I am your servant, and that I have done all these things at your word. 18:37 Hear me, Yahweh, hear me, that this people may know that you, Yahweh, are God, and that you have turned their heart back again.”

    18:38 Then the fire of Yahweh fell, and consumed the burnt offering, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench. 18:39 When all the people saw it, they fell on their faces.

    They said, “Yahweh, he is God! Yahweh, he is God!”

    18:40 Elijah said to them, “Seize the prophets of Baal! Don’t let one of them escape!”

    They seized them. Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and killed them there.


    So let's forget about Elijah for a moment then and concentrate on other examples that God made sure made it into the holy scriptures. In the apostle Paul's time there were false prophets and false chists and antichrists. The reason people knew who the real people were, the anointed of the time, is because they, the anointed of the time, could prove it through their actions. They deliberately cured all sorts of illnesses, raised the dead and expelled demons. Why? Because it was a command from Jesus.

    There was one case though when the apostles couldn't expel a demon. That account is when a father brought his demon possessed child that convulsed on the ground and the demon would throw the child into the water or fire, etc. In that case only, Jesus said that prayer was the only thing that could expel the demon. Note though that Jesus didn't pray, he just expelled the demon.
    Mark 9:14 Coming to the disciples, he saw a great multitude around them, and scribes questioning them. 9:15 Immediately all the multitude, when they saw him, were greatly amazed, and running to him greeted him. 9:16 He asked the scribes, “What are you asking them?”

    9:17 One of the multitude answered, “Teacher, I brought to you my son, who has a mute spirit; 9:18 and wherever it seizes him, it throws him down, and he foams at the mouth, and grinds his teeth, and wastes away. I asked your disciples to cast it out, and they weren’t able.”

    9:19 He answered him, “Unbelieving generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I bear with you? Bring him to me.”

    9:20 They brought him to him, and when he saw him, immediately the spirit convulsed him, and he fell on the ground, wallowing and foaming at the mouth.

    9:21 He asked his father, “How long has it been since this has come to him?”

    He said, “From childhood. 9:22 Often it has cast him both into the fire and into the water, to destroy him. But if you can do anything, have compassion on us, and help us.”

    9:23 Jesus said to him, “If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes.”

    9:24 Immediately the father of the child cried out with tears, “I believe. Help my unbelief!”

    9:25 When Jesus saw that a multitude came running together, he rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to him, “You mute and deaf spirit, I command you, come out of him, and never enter him again!”

    9:26 Having cried out, and convulsed greatly, it came out of him. The boy became like one dead; so much that most of them said, “He is dead.” 9:27 But Jesus took him by the hand, and raised him up; and he arose.

    9:28 When he had come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, “Why couldn’t we cast it out?” 9:29 He said to them, “This kind can come out by nothing, except by prayer and fasting.”
     
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