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Watchmen: is Adrian Veidt a villain?

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Spoilers, just a heads up.

In Watchmen, Adrian Veidt murders Edward Blake, convinces Jon he gave the people he loves cancer, framed Rorschach, and then managed to kill 15 million people and frame Jon for it, uniting the world in peace (movie ending). The whole point of Watchmen is to challenge philosophy and much more, including what is moral and good / evil. While Adrian killed more people than Hitler did, and in about 35 minutes time, he also saved the world from destruction.

Let's look at what happened; if Adrian did not do this, more people would have died in nuclear war. "Killing millions to save billions". No doubt that (if not for Rorschach's journal maybe) he did, in fact, save the world. Adrian's actions are a critique on Utilitarianism as well as moral relativism, and a great one. Is he truly a villian, or is he the savior of the human race?
 

Sir Doom

Cooler than most of you
Evil. I don't think its reasonable to say that the world couldn't have been saved from nuclear war in some other way that didn't involve the innocent slaughter of millions and pulling the wool over the world's eyes. I thought it was sort of a cop out move that they use Dr. Manhattan to sell the inevitability of it. He knows everything so he must know this right? I get that the message was served better by the way it turned out (so we could have good conversations about it :D ). But I'm with Rorschach.
 

Badran

Veteran Member
Premium Member
In Watchmen, Adrian Veidt murders Edward Blake, convinces Jon he gave the people he loves cancer, framed Rorschach, and then managed to kill 15 million people and frame Jon for it, uniting the world in peace (movie ending). The whole point of Watchmen is to challenge philosophy and much more, including what is moral and good / evil. While Adrian killed more people than Hitler did, and in about 35 minutes time, he also saved the world from destruction.

Let's look at what happened; if Adrian did not do this, more people would have died in nuclear war. "Killing millions to save billions". No doubt that (if not for Rorschach's journal maybe) he did, in fact, save the world. Adrian's actions are a critique on Utilitarianism as well as moral relativism, and a great one. Is he truly a villain, or is he the savior of the human race?

A villain.

His means to achieve what he wants are based upon deceiving others and making the entire world live a lie. He's taking the sole responsibility for making a gigantic decision which will radically affect everyone's life, without consideration for their will or any recognition of a "say" for the world in its own supposed destiny. The inherent problem with assuming such an enormous responsibility is that since you can not know the outcomes for sure, you shouldn't assume such responsibility in the first place. We live in a life where we don't know many things for sure, to start making decisions for each other and basing them on lies is a horrible thing to do because you're taking away from the life of others. You're robbing them of the ability to live their lives knowing the "truth" and thus as well affecting the decisions they're making based upon those lies. You would've chosen to make everyone live a fantasy merely because you thought its for their best interest. So in essence what i'm saying is that even had his plan worked, it would've still been wrong in my view.

And then of course, as you noted in the OP, the other disaster is that his plan didn't actually end up working. So it was all for nothing. At most, what it could've prevented is an immediate nuclear war, but it has failed in its primary objective, which is "unit people for ever". The irony here is that by the failure of his plan, all he did was add to the atrocities committed. He has committed the worst massacre ever, and hasn't changed anything in regard to human nature. This is in my view, like i said earlier, an inherent problem with assumed responsibility and one of the main reasons for the disasters that occur in real life, and why (among other reasons) there are so many wars and atrocities being committed around the world. Governments lie to the populations they're governing, make decisions for them, and do all they can to make sure the population is living the fantasy of their choosing. I think that some of those governments, presidents in specific or politicians in general are actually sincere, in that they think they're doing the best for everybody. Thats why i don't see what Adrian Veidt did as any different from all the other atrocities committed, only excluding ones where the intents of the person responsible are clear to not be including in anyway everybody else's best interest.

One last thing is that in his own mind, even if he thinks that he's doing the right thing, i'd expect some remorse. You don't kill 15 million people everyday. I'd expect a normal person to totally crash down after doing such thing, but since he's immensely deluded by his own ego i don't expect that, just some remorse. I didn't detect that at all in the movie.
 
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1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
It makes me wonder. He has infinite resources pretty much, so why didn't he create the free energy and such that the world and Dr. Manhattan believed he was working on? I think what further shows he is a villain is that he is solely responsible for rebuilding New York if not other places, giving him more power and money than he even previously had. Everything becomes owned by Veidt.
 

Sir Doom

Cooler than most of you
It makes me wonder. He has infinite resources pretty much, so why didn't he create the free energy and such that the world and Dr. Manhattan believed he was working on? I think what further shows he is a villain is that he is solely responsible for rebuilding New York if not other places, giving him more power and money than he even previously had. Everything becomes owned by Veidt.

Another excellent point, he essentially has duped himself into viewing his megalomania as martyrdom. He's pretty good at dishonesty all the way around. He dupes the entire planet, dupes Dr. Manhattan and the rest of the Watchmen including himself.

That's one of the reasons I can't stand Dr. Manhattan's validation of the entire affair. He essentially ignores the fact that Veidt has successfully duped him for years already and swallows the entire thing hook, line and sinker. All for (I suspect) the extremely selfish reason that he's tired of being both a good person and a ridiculously powerful being at the same time. He's tired of helping humanity and uses Veidt's power-grab as an excuse to leave the planet behind without feeling guilty about it.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Well by the time they all learned of Adrian's plan it was too late. I understand the compromise especially from Dr. Manhattan. I think Rorschach cries at the end because he's surprised that he doesn't falter in his ideals, which is why he is one of my favorite characters of all time. Just like I think the Comedian cries because he is surprised he now cares about the world in a way. The truth is that no matter how bad the deed was it was done and they had to go with it. Rorschach's journal may make 15 million lives wasted in vain. However, even without that journal anything could happen.

Adrian: I did the right thing, didn't I? It all worked out in the end.
Dr. Manhattan: "In the end?" Nothing ends, Adrian. Nothing ever ends.
 

Sir Doom

Cooler than most of you
Well by the time they all learned of Adrian's plan it was too late. I understand the compromise especially from Dr. Manhattan. I think Rorschach cries at the end because he's surprised that he doesn't falter in his ideals, which is why he is one of my favorite characters of all time. Just like I think the Comedian cries because he is surprised he now cares about the world in a way. The truth is that no matter how bad the deed was it was done and they had to go with it. Rorschach's journal may make 15 million lives wasted in vain. However, even without that journal anything could happen.

Adrian: I did the right thing, didn't I? It all worked out in the end.
Dr. Manhattan: "In the end?" Nothing ends, Adrian. Nothing ever ends.

I don't know, I think it was helplessness that got Rorschach. I really need to read the comic, to be honest. I think that would give me a more clear picture.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
I don't know, I think it was helplessness that got Rorschach. I really need to read the comic, to be honest. I think that would give me a more clear picture.

The book does add a lot.
 

Sir Doom

Cooler than most of you
Picked up this graphic novel today :)

When I'm finished I'll give my revised opinion. So far it seems to be fairly close to the movie (which is one of the reasons I really like Zack Snyder).
 

Karl R

Active Member
No doubt that (if not for Rorschach's journal maybe) he did, in fact, save the world.
There's a strong implication that this salvation was temporary, at best.

Adrian Veidt goes by the name of Ozymandias, a transliteration into Greek of Ramesses throne name, because Veidt revered Ramesses II. While Ramesses II built a great Egyptian empire, it fell apart about a century after his death. In addition, the only person Veidt felt kinship with was Alexander the Great, another empire-builder, whose empire fell apart only years after his death.

Adrian Veidt: "Jon, wait, before you leave ... I did the right thing, didn't I? It all worked out in the end."
Dr. Manhattan: "'In the end?' Nothing ends, Adrian. Nothing ever ends."

Adrian's actions are a critique on Utilitarianism as well as moral relativism, and a great one. Is he truly a villian, or is he the savior of the human race?
He is a monster. As the smartest man in the world, he could have found a solution that didn't require the deaths of millions of people. Even Veidt didn't know whether his solution would work (either the one he used in the graphic novel or the movie), so he was gambling on it succeeding. He could have chosen to gamble with a solution that had a lower level of collateral damage.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
The negative out weighs the positive.

Incredibly dependant on perspective.

I believe in intention he was not a villain at all. Not in the sense that anyone tries to be a villain, but in the sense that I doubt he was acting for his own well being but that of others. In my interpretation of the character (and to me this would be what makes him interesting) this is what made him really interesting.

In many ways, he was a martyr, but so was Rorscherc. Ironically, and as a "bad joke" , one undid the other, or was at least very prone to undo the other.

There is also another irony or interesting thing in the story: in the real world, the cold war remained that: cold. It never erupted. It never happened.

It is imposible to determine if Veidt`s world was to have it if he had dobne nothing nor is it posible to determine if he prevented it somehow.

The way I see it, the journal was meant to further this uncertainty, to say the world is ALWAYS few seconds away from ultimate doom but somehow, this doom never comes. Maybe it is great tragedies like those of Veidt that make this doom never come, maybe it is idealistic martyrdom which makes it come further.

We cannot know, at least for the watchmen world can tell.

The fact that you cannot truly say if he is a villain (did more bad than the bad he managed to prevent) is one of the true marvels of that char IMHO
 

langes

New Member
Adrian was the type of hero that the world needs today, someone who sees what is wrong with the world and fixes it without talking. Most importantly though is that he doesn't do it for glory or world domination just to save it.
 

Adept

Member
Best story ever, I absolutely adore Watchmen.

I've studied the psychology and philosophy of Watchmen for a long time and, after years of debate, I can confidently say Veidt is a villain. The story sets this up and it's a part of the joke to make him seem like an anti hero. Yes, he did unite the world, but there are two personal reasons he selfishly did it: to be the savior and to personally gain power and wealth by helping rebuild. Veidt is obsessed with Alexander the Great and Ramses II, two great rules who conquered through, of course, violence. He has an extremely inflated ego and truly does believe he is superior and a worthy ruler. Further, Veidt's company personally leads the rebuilding of at least New York, if not elsewhere. One final selling point is that, if Veidt had actually committed to creating unlimited energy with Jon as was his facade instead of making a fake alien / teleporting manhattan bombs (depending which version), he could have accomplished it and fixed the world. Instead he plaed the conquror. He's more like an anti-villain.
 
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