Was this just an "accident"?

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Why does Day precede the Sun.

Daylight Savings?

Why does it say that the Earth comes from water and is surrounded by water on all sides including underneath? In what way does that align with natural reality?

You have to hold your breath under water and you have to hold your breath in outer space?

Why is Eve made from a rib instead of from red clay like Adam is? If there is a Biblical reason what is it?

Adam had a "real" wife named Lilith, but they broke up. God realized Adam could only please himself, so rather than explain masturbation, He just added breasts and a vagina to the clone.

• Where is Eden?

• Where is the Tree of Life?

Probably under an Iraqi shopping mall.

Where does Cain get a wife from? Is she from his rib or is she from somewhere else?

Never mentions what they did to Abel's corpse, does it?

Why is the Hebrew tabernacle set up like its the garden of Eden with the Ark and the Torah where the Tree of Life would be?

To give Ken Ham ideas later on how to monetize myth.

Why is a flaming sword used to guard the Tree of Life instead of a different kind of sword?

A long time ago in a galaxy far away ... Jedi were for realz.

Why is Noah's ship called an Ark, just like the thing that the Torah is kept in? Coincidence?

Thesauruses haven't been invented yet?

What is a Seraphim, exactly? What is a Cherabim, exactly?

I think it has to do with the number of wings or something.

Check it out....you think a living thing like this just 'poofed' itself into existence?

I thought the idea that God took credit for all the pretty pictures but the consequences of man eating a snack is what caused the ugly pictures?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Malaria is caused by the protozoan parasite Plasmodium. The disease has cost countless lives and caused indescribable suffering across much of human history. The parasite exploits Anopheles mosquitoes and humans to complete its fairly complex life cycle.

Now surely such an intricate, complex life history could not have arise merely "by chance", as an "accident", or "without intelligence", correct?

How did thousands of such species come to be in symbiosis, evolving millions of years apart, even parasitic symbiosis? How did the human liver mechanistically evolve over 500 functions?

 

[shmogie]

So ID creationists do not argue that evolutionary mechanisms are insufficient to produce complexity?

That's probably news to creationists like @Deeje and @Guy Threepwood .

It depends upon the"complexity" you are talking about as well as the systems and mechanisms you are talking about. It is entirely possible that the fungus ants for example may have improved the complexity of their food system by refining their farming ability. Understand however that I speak for no one but me, I do not speak for the ID movement or others who accept ID. I m not a biologist and what I may believe now may be shown to be in error by an ID biologist. You cannot use me as a whipping boy to indict the ID movement, only my personal beliefs are fodder for your cannons

 

[Brickjectivity]

Daylight Savings?

Good answer. Strike that one off the list.

You have to hold your breath under water and you have to hold your breath in outer space?

It is generally a good idea for me to hold my breathe anyway. (That's Australian humor. Learned it from a friend of mine. If you ask me it should have drowned in the Great Flood, but somehow Australian things are exempt from the Great Flood.).

Adam had a "real" wife named Lilith, but they broke up. God realized Adam could only please himself, so rather than explain masturbation, He just added breasts and a vagina to the clone.

You mean Lilith from The Sandman comic? This is the Bible we're talking about. Its got no pictures, and there's no Lilith in it.

Probably under an Iraqi shopping mall.

You're saying the USA invaded Eden? That's kind of cool and sad at the same time.

Never mentions what they did to Abel's corpse, does it?

That is a lot of ribs. I know what I'd do.

To give Ken Ham ideas later on how to monetize myth.

He can show Jesus riding a white horse and also a dinosaur into Jerusalem. Good luck explaining why the horse is white though.

A long time ago in a galaxy far away ... Jedi were for realz.

That is not Biblical. You're going to get the 7th Day Adventists angry.

Thesauruses haven't been invented yet?

So what. They have dinosauruses instead. They're better.

I think it has to do with the number of wings or something.

Its a secret. Even Jews don't know, because its so secret. Besides they are ignorant when it comes to the Bible as are evolutionists, however all Israel will be saved.

I thought the idea that God took credit for all the pretty pictures but the consequences of man eating a snack is what caused the ugly pictures?

Hey. Who are you talking to?

 

[Jose Fly]

I understand. I think then that a different argument will be more efficient, since at some point you are going to allow the creationist side to have the last word. I am not sure what your goal is here besides enjoying your own point of view. Its fine to do that, if that is what your goal is.

It's to prove a point about this specific creationist argument.

I'm sure you can show that there are mechanisms in the DNA which would require new genetic information to go from a symbiotic parasitic cycle to one that is harmful for humans.

Very much so.

I personally appreciate your effort and do not mean to discourage you. If you feel you can reach creationists then go for it.

Oh I don't expect to "reach" any creationists. I'm not sure that's even possible with the ones we have here at RF.

 

[Jose Fly]

I could do some research and provide you with evidence based examples of host parasite convolution if you are interested. But are you interested, or will you loose interest as soon as you discover that this method of attacking the science of evolution is not working well?

I think you misunderstood the point of the OP. It's not an attack on evolution or science, but is rather a question for creationists (did God design Plasmodium or did it evolve).

 

[Jose Fly]

No offense, but this is crap. If the "beneficial symbiotic relationship" included the strains that cause Malaria, then it isn't beneficial. And if it didn't include those parasitic strains that cause Malaria, then those parasites WOULDN'T HAVE A LIFECYCLE - and therefore wouldn't survive or propagate, and their "creation" would have been for nothing.

Remember, as @Jose Fly pointed out already, under creationism one has to claim that these parasites were created mostly "as is" - you don't get to say they turned "evil" or something "after the fall" and therefore were imbued with more genetic information. Unless you want to admit that God did that, and made these parasites deadly in order to kill humans.

Besides... at the time "before the fall"... guess how many humans there were. Oh that's right... you know. There were TWO. What the heck kind of "symbiotic relationship" could there be between 2 unique beings and a bunch of mosquitoes? Better hope those bites are pretty damn "beneficial".

You sit there and hint and imply that people are wasting their time... that "it's fine if you want to do that, but...", and here you are, posting things like this? Pot's black... kettle's black... give it a rest.

BINGO!!! Nice to see that someone gets it.

 

[Jose Fly]

How did thousands of such species come to be in symbiosis, evolving millions of years apart, even parasitic symbiosis? How did the human liver mechanistically evolve over 500 functions?

Start your own thread on that if you want.

 

[Brickjectivity]

No offense, but this is crap. If the "beneficial symbiotic relationship" included the strains that cause Malaria, then it isn't beneficial. And if it didn't include those parasitic strains that cause Malaria, then those parasites WOULDN'T HAVE A LIFECYCLE - and therefore wouldn't survive or propagate, and their "creation" would have been for nothing.

Hi 'mote. Actually all you'd have to do is say that originally Malaria was beneficial to both humans and mosquitoes but that it became damaged as a result of sin. Presto. The malaria-human infection cycle becomes an originally good system affected by death. How much easier it is to corrupt a computer program or a good virus into a bad computer program or a bad virus. This moves the argument beyond the scope of most people's education level, because now to disprove the claim you'd have to understand something about the genetic coding of Malaria. In general most creationist claims can be very general and vague yet require deep knowledge of a given subject to dislodge.

Remember, as @Jose Fly pointed out already, under creationism one has to claim that these parasites were created mostly "as is" - you don't get to say they turned "evil" or something "after the fall" and therefore were imbued with more genetic information. Unless you want to admit that God did that, and made these parasites deadly in order to kill humans.

Creationists frequently claim that with sin death comes into the world, so that could be interpreted as new genetic information. It could be interpreted anyway that is convenient for furthering the budget of any fake PhD, fake Scientist, Architect writing books about Biology etc.

 

[Jose Fly]

It depends upon the"complexity" you are talking about as well as the systems and mechanisms you are talking about. It is entirely possible that the fungus ants for example may have improved the complexity of their food system by refining their farming ability. Understand however that I speak for no one but me, I do not speak for the ID movement or others who accept ID. I m not a biologist and what I may believe now may be shown to be in error by an ID biologist. You cannot use me as a whipping boy to indict the ID movement, only my personal beliefs are fodder for your cannons

Ok. This thread is specifically about the ID creationists' argument about evolution not being able to generate complexity or "new genetic information".

 

[sayak83]

I think you misunderstood the point of the OP. It's not an attack on evolution or science, but is rather a question for creationists (did God design Plasmodium or did it evolve).

Ah. OK. I did not get that. Sorry.

 

[Jose Fly]

Ah. OK. I did not get that. Sorry.

No worries!

 

[Rational Agnostic]

Malaria is caused by the protozoan parasite Plasmodium. The disease has cost countless lives and caused indescribable suffering across much of human history. The parasite exploits Anopheles mosquitoes and humans to complete its fairly complex life cycle.

Now surely such an intricate, complex life history could not have arise merely "by chance", as an "accident", or "without intelligence", correct?

It's caused by SIN....duhhh

 

[Polymath257]

As we've been over, that is nothing more than a weak attempt at a semantics argument. Your own sources clearly stated that populations adapt by evolving.


But how? By what mechanism(s) did Plasmodium go from a benign symbiont to a parasite with a very complex life history? Surely the parasitic life history requires specific "genetic information" and biochemical pathways, correct? And since ID creationists argue that evolutionary mechanisms cannot generate new "genetic information" or complex biochemistry, then the information and pathways that allow Plasmodium to propagate via this life history must have come from somewhere.

The information comes, as all information does in evolution, from mutation and selection. In parasites, the host and the parasite tend to co-evolve. The addition of an additional host (to create multi-host parasitism) has several stages, from mere transport without actual infection, to acquiring infectivity in a new host, to co-opting predators, etc.

Thrown in ID creationists' argument that only "intelligence" can generate "genetic information" and complex biochemistry, then we must conclude that this "intelligence" was responsible for "designing" Plasmodium specifically to infect and kill humans. Then when we add in that the ID creationists' "designer" is God, there is only one conclusion to reach......

God intentionally and specifically created Plasmodium to infect and kill humans


But how? Where did the "genetic information" and complex biochemistry come from that allowed them to go from benign symbiont to human parasite?

First, you have to realize that parasitism is far, far older than the human species. The evidence is that Plasmodium in humans co-evolved from related species in other great apes:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v467/n7314/full/nature09442.html?foxtrotcallback=true

I don't think specifics are known previous to this.

That's an interesting story, but it doesn't explain how the necessary biological and genetic changes occurred.


So God deliberately creates human parasites and then creates humans with the ability to not be infected by them? God works against himself?

Do you even think these little stories through before you post them?

Here is a good overview:

https://www.ukessays.com/essays/biology/complex-multi-host-life-cycles-of-parasitism.php[/QUOTE]