Was the war justified?

[linwood]

Well you're right that Zarqawi was in Kurdish territory...as for your allegation that Bush knew where he was and left him alone, I fail to see a plausible motive for such an action, much less evidence to support it.

I can`t even guess at the motive but if you want evidence watch Powells UN presentation.
His nifty Power Point presentation had a great big blow up picture of Zarqawis camp...INTACT.

How long before the start of the war was Powells presentation?
I don`t remember but it was at least weeks.
Zarqawis camp wasn`t attacked until Kurdish forces under the direction of US special ops hit it at the beginning of the war where they managed to kill 100-200 stooges who were left behind to die.

Maybe he was there before the UN presentation and maybe he wasn`t, it still would have been a pretty good idea to hit it before we announced our knowledge of it to the world in prime time.
If Zarqawi was there you can bet he was packing his bags before Powell finished his presentation.
They`ve got sattelite dishes in that desert y`know.

At any rate, you're spinning the issue and we're getting off-topic.

You always say stuff like that when you`re losing the argument.

I`m not spinning anything I`m "unspinning" the rhetoric put forward by those who started this war and I`m most definately not off topic...

OP:
Do you think the war was justified? What should the US do now?

I`ve made many points about wthe first part of the OP and I`ve suggested we change our attitude towards the rest of the world to avoid wars like this in the future in respect to the second point of the OP.

Edit:
I haven`t denied their are terrorists with an anti-US ideology.
i`m just trying to understand where they got that ideology

 

[Mr Spinkles]

You always say stuff like that when you`re losing the argument.

They're moral victories, linwood.

Do you still think that our enemies hate democracy is BS or not?j

Do you agree with the following...?

...the Islamic radicals who cut off heads in the name of God, who kidnap the families of politicians running for office in Iraq's fledgling democracy, and who drive truckloads of explosives into lines of Iraqis hoping to become police officers certainly do hate the U.S (and the rest of the West) because their ideology is one of theocracy and oppression, and coordinate their attacks in an effort to intimidate with the ultimate goal of prohibiting the "evil idea of democracy" from becoming a reality in Iraq.

 

[linwood]

They're moral victories, linwood.

Those are the best kind my friend.



Do you still think that our enemies hate democracy is BS or not?

No it`s not BS, they do hate democracy but simply stating "they hate us for our freedoms" is far too shallow to ever help with the problems.

All that rhetoric does is speak to the symptoms while leaving the disease alive to spread.

There are reason why that hate us, some of those reasons are valid in my eyes.

Edit:
Do you agree with the following...?

No it`s sick and demented but that crap wasn`t happening before we got to iraq.
We lured those terrorists there and now the Iraqis are paying the price.
It may turn out to be an excellent strategy considering AlQuedas limited resources.
It keeps them away from our land and gets them all in one place making it easier to kill them.
BUT..it ain`t good for Iraq.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

No it`s not BS, they do hate democracy but simply stating "they hate us for our freedoms" is far too shallow to ever help with the problems.

Fair enough!

*discretely places tic mark under "Spinks' wins" column*

 

[Scuba Pete]

Linwood,

I wholeheartedly agree... even though the "point" fails, in the larger context it has little bearing but as rhetoric on their part. The hate and mistrust comes from them not understanding that most Americans (including the soldiers) wish them well. Can they ever understand this? With the revelations of the abuses at Abu Gharab, I am not sure. There is so much working against us, including the spin by those who blindly hate. Blind rage has NEVER resolved anything on either side.

 

[linwood]

Doc the only way they will ever understand the intent of the American people is through the individual US soldier because that is the only example of us they have or may ever have.

I think for the most part we are well represented but that type of process takes time.

 

[jewscout]

I agree with you, and when I would meet your cousin before he went to the war, he would probably be a nice man.

Do consider that he has been living live on the edge for how long, 2 years, under influence of what performance boosting drugs i nwhat kind of life endangering situations? And probably is a bit paranoid about anything and everything that is happening around him.. He wasn't but probably now is.

Why do you think most veterans have such a hard time coming back from the war?

wellllll actually my cousin came home a few months ago and is back to what he always does in his free time...playing everquest
He's the same guy he was when he left...

 

[scitsofreaky]

(Sorry, this is a bit late, but I have been busy) TA from page 13:

3rd. There is dishonor in fighting without thinking for any cause.

YOu have to realize that the soldiers are sworn to do what they are told unless it is unlawful. So, even if you disagree with the orders given, as long as they are inaccordance with law, you have to execute them. Honor really doesn't matter, what matters is doing what you have sworn to do.

 

[BUDDY]

And in this day and age feeling that one has to identify with "idiot" is so much worse, then having to identify with "terrorist", because an idiot feels that he has to write that.

If in any of my former statements, you were under the impression that I was calling you are a terrorist, then I apologize for your misunderstanding and my inability to properly communicate my point. I was not trying to call you a terrorist, but simply making a comparison of language used. I tried to make that clear and obviously failed. If anyone else misunderstood me, then please be aware that I am not calling TranceAm a terrorist. I do not think he is a terrorist.

As to the second part of the question, I think the US owes it to its citizens, Iraq and the world to stabilize the government and finish the mission.

 

[Prima]

I promised myself I was going to stay outta this thread, but I'm gonna stick in one comment.

Several people have said that they want us out of Iraq.

We're trying.

Tim Russert of Meet the Press said that his best estimate is seven years. We're trying our best to get out. No one wants to stay. The problem is that we need thousands of Iraqi police officers, and most of them need extensive training. So far, we don't have nearly enough. It's going to take time, and it's going to take plenty of prayers that the Iraqis step up to the plate.

 

[Saw11_2000]

I doubt seven years, I say by 2006-7 we'll be out, that was what? 3-4 years?

 

[Scuba Pete]

Thats what I understood you to say EEWRED! People often twist words to prove their point. Don't let it bother you.

 

[Yerda]

I think the US owes it to its citizens, Iraq and the world to stabilize the government and finish the mission.

What is the mission exactly?

I doubt seven years, I say by 2006-7 we'll be out, that was what? 3-4 years?

There was a bloke on TV this morning claiming there will be British soldiers in Iraq in ten years time.

 

[jewscout]

I doubt seven years, I say by 2006-7 we'll be out, that was what? 3-4 years?

i'll in shock and awe :biglaugh: if that actually happens...

i think we'll see a draft first...

 

[Studies]

Well Saddam was no walk in the park and it would have been nice if during Desert Storm we would have taken him out then, but we didn't. My son is fighting in this war and I am torn , the way I see it no one wins a war. I know from my son the more vilolence that goes on by insurgents there are many more Iraq's that want us out now then before.

I hate the loss of life of the coalition troops , our troops and all the innocent cilvilans, this is the worst part in any war. But I stand with our troops , they need our support. That being said I think the guys at the top jumped the gun on this one , but there is no going back , I just keep praying that all will be over soon, which is a long shot but miricals do happen.

 

[Peacefulnrss]

here is an email I recieved the other day... not sure if it is of intrest. Peace and Love

----- Forwarded message from UFPJ Action Alerts <[email protected]>
-----
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 20:44:46 -0800 (PST)
From: UFPJ Action Alerts <[email protected]>
Reply-To: UFPJ Action Alerts <[email protected]>
Subject: At Least 765 Anti-War Actions Around the U.S.
To: [email protected]


ACTION ALERT * UNITED FOR PEACE AND JUSTICE
http://www.unitedforpeace.org | 212-868-5545
============================================
AT LEAST 765 ANTI-WAR ACTIONS AROUND THE U.S.
MARK TWO-YEAR ANNIVERSARY OF IRAQ INVASION

In at least 765 towns and cities around the United States, people gathered for
peace last weekend on the two-year anniversary of invasion of Iraq. Thousands
marched, rallied, participated in religious services, and solemnly read the
names of those who have been killed in this unjustified and futile war.

The extraordinary breadth of the weekend's anti-war activities reflect the
vitality of grassroots peace activism. Anti-war events were held in all 50
states, and in more than twice as many communities as during last year's
anniversary of the war.

Bad weather throughout the country didn't deter people from taking to the
streets for peace. Sister Bay, Wisconsin, saw a doubling in the number of local
residents willing to protest publicly against the war, as six people braved a
snowstorm to display peace signs to passing cars. Despite pouring rain, more
than 300 people took part in a two-mile anti-war march in Tucson, Arizona.

There were courageous acts of civil resistance: Thirty-five people occupied the
office today of Congressman Tom Allen in Portland, Maine, to protest his recent
vote in favor of the $82 billion war appropriation. Seventy people shut down a
military recruiting center in Eugene, Oregon, for an entire day. In New York
City, thirty people were arrested at simultaneous civil disobedience actions at
military recruiting centers in Brooklyn and Manhattan.

Many events featured family members of active-duty soldiers, veterans of this
and previous wars, and relatives of slain servicepeople, all speaking out
against the continued U.S. military occupation of Iraq. In Fayetteville, North
Carolina, the home of Ft. Bragg, more than 4000 people joined military families
and vets to say real support for the troops means bringing them home. It was the
largest protest there since Vietnam.

We've now received reportbacks from more than 175 different communities where
anti-war events took place. (If you haven't sent yours in yet, please write to
[email protected]) The reports we received from smaller towns and
cities are particularly inspiring, reflecting a real growth in anti-war
sentiment and organizing in many conservative areas of the country.

Some examples:

In Sandpoint, Idaho -- a town with a population of about 7000, in a county that
voted almost 2-1 for Bush over Kerry -- a lively crowd of 195 people took part
in a peace march through town, and 120 attended a community forum on war and
peace. "The energy was great. Democracy is burgeoning!" wrote Evan Martin, one
of the organizers.

In Barre, Vermont, a group of 70-100 people held a vigil in front of the Barre
Army Recruitment Center. "Though Barre is typically a conservative town many
cars and SUVs on this very busy main road were honking in favor of the vigil,"
wrote Debra Stoleroff. "We felt surprised and hopeful."

In Terre Haute, Indiana, organizer Cathy McGuire reports, "Our fear was that it
would only be our core group of ten who would come [to our demonstration], and
when it turned into 40 we were thrilled…. It looks like we are back in the
demonstration business again."

In Providence, Rhode Island, the Community Coalition for Peace held a peace
march with about 450 participants. "As a result of the event," organizer Mark
Stahl reports, "we doubled the size of our listserv membership and experienced
a resurgence of enthusiasm and initiative in building for the future."

Glade Church in Blacksburg, VA, hosted a candlelight peace vigil with about 20
participants -- the first directly anti-war event held at the church in recent
years.

A vigil, march, and town hall meeting in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, drew more than
500 participants -- making it, in the words of organizer Matthew Smucker, "the
largest anti-war event in Lancaster at least in the past three decades,
possibly ever."

Finally, from Emporia, Kansas, Ellen Hansen writes, "e were a small group of
only 6 people. Nevertheless we lit candles, hiding them from the wind blowing
across the Kansas plains. … We discussed the importance of participating even
in a small gathering such as we held, in order to make the statement that we
are against the war in Iraq and that it is not being conducting with our
support or in our names. We live in a very RED state, in a small city where no
Democrats won at the local level last November.…We're small, but we'll keep
making a noise for change."

UFPJ's strategy for this year's anniversary of the war was to emphasize local
protests and local movement-building, rather than to focus on a handful of
large mobilizations in major cities. Judging from the reports we've received,
it was an extremely successful approach, helping to deepen and broaden anti-war
sentiment all across the nation.

Congratulations to everyone who helped make this such an important weekend in
our struggle to end the war in Iraq and bring the troops home!

===========================================
MAY 1: END THE WAR! ABOLISH NUKES!
NYC March and Rally for Peace in Iraq and Disarmament Worldwide
Visit http://www.unitedforpeace.org for leaflets and more information
===========================================
ACTION ALERT * UNITED FOR PEACE AND JUSTICE
http://www.unitedforpeace.org | 212-868-5545
To subscribe, visit http://www.unitedforpeace.org/email

 

[Peacefulnrss]

sadly no I was not at any of these places... I am in Canada

 

[Christopher Krajewski]

For its own sense of consistency doing the job of: O.K. protecting the Oil industry; keeping the capacity for the middle eastern countries to their own national finance system; and allowing the law for the dictatorial development and limitation of decisions by brutal regimes (best way to do a job; just meaning the jewelry, plantations, and leather excahnge byu bedouins: they can ignore all democratic attitudes denied; let the bureaucracy be indifferent and impertenent to my sociable swindle); is NOT justified. We gave no gifts that were less with the devil than the Jews would dare.:162:

But the WAR must go on, hoping for justification. Maybe it has to do with justice with respect to God, Allah. My question for those who may be reading; can Bah'ai be able to show some sort of PRACTICE for THEORY justiciation. I'm sick of the read in MY HEAD of communist spooks in those countries like Syria, Lebanon, and after-all the Insurgents of Iraq. Let's proclaim that for fighting from the Guerilla's.


Don't spook ME: bigots at peace; *******; do you EXIST?:tsk:

 

[Feathers in Hair]

For its own sense of consistency doing the job of: O.K. protecting the Oil industry; keeping the capacity for the middle eastern countries to their own national finance system; and allowing the law for the dictatorial development and limitation of decisions by brutal regimes (best way to do a job; just meaning the jewelry, plantations, and leather excahnge byu bedouins: they can ignore all democratic attitudes denied; let the bureaucracy be indifferent and impertenent to my sociable swindle); is NOT justified. We gave no gifts that were less with the devil than the Jews would dare.:162:

But the WAR must go on, hoping for justification. Maybe it has to do with justice with respect to God, Allah. My question for those who may be reading; can Bah'ai be able to show some sort of PRACTICE for THEORY justiciation. I'm sick of the read in MY HEAD of communist spooks in those countries like Syria, Lebanon, and after-all the Insurgents of Iraq. Let's proclaim that for fighting from the Guerilla's.


Don't spook ME: bigots at peace; *******; do you EXIST?:tsk:

I'm very confused. "We gave no gifts that were less with the devil than the Jews would dare." Is that a phrase I'm not familiar familiar with, or is that a statement against Jews? And who are you calling a bigot, or a '*******'?

 

[linwood]

I think Chris is speaking in tongues again.