Was the Tanakh falsified?

[Wandering Monk]

I am so sorry dude, but I don't know who that is. Am I supposed to?

Sorry.

Israel Finkelstein - Wikipedia

 

[dybmh]

Sorry.

Israel Finkelstein - Wikipedia

No worries. I looked him up. I mean, no disrespect, but was I supposed to value his opinion because he's Israeli? Shunyadragon can quote archaeology data and I'll value it just the same.

 

[sooda]

Sorry.

Israel Finkelstein - Wikipedia

He's brilliant, isn't he?

 

[Wandering Monk]

was I supposed to value his opinion because he's Israeli? the same.

What? Did you check out Finkelstein's credentials? His nationality has zero to do with his hypothesis.

 

[dybmh]

What? Did you check out Finkelstein's credentials? His nationality has zero to do with his hypothesis.

I know...

I guess I'm confused because, I'm not contradicting anyone's archaeological findings.

 

[Wandering Monk]

I know...

I guess I'm confused because, I'm not contradicting anyone's archaeological findings.

I wasn't rebutting you with my reference to Finkelstein but supporting your idea that the Torah was late.

 

[dybmh]

@Wandering Monk ,

So basically what I gather from @shunyadragon is that, Because of the complete lack of archaeological evidence, he would need some very very convincing evidence to adjust the date of 700BCE. It would need to be archaeological evidence, a big discovery.

 

[dybmh]

your idea that the Torah was late.

early...

 

[Samantha Rinne]

@Rival @Harel13

Revelation 3:9 KJV
“Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of SATAN, which say they are Jews, and are NOT, but do LIE; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet”

This is already fulfilled prophecy by the time of Jesus.

This is why Jesus died in fact.

God told the Jews that he did not like sacrifices and burnt offerings. Yet they continued in the trade of animals.
God told the Jews that he preferred a tent to a house built with human hands, and preferred to travel with his chosen people, and have a personal relationship with them. Instead they built a Temple, and set up a curtain so that none of them could connect with God but the priest.
God told his people that he does not choose as humans do (when he decided on David). So when a Messiah was chosen in the same manner as David, they made excuses why he could not be the Messiah, claiming that because he wasn't for freeing the Jews from the Romans and wasn't pro-Temple, he couldn't be the Messiah.

But no, the Tanakh is fine. It's the people reading it that are false, as are the rabbinical writings that we shouldn't be listening to, since these priests are at odds with God's chosen, making themselves leaders in his place.

 

[shunyadragon]

Right.

This is how I understand what you're saying:

"If there was evidence of any of this stuff, it would have been discovered already."

No this is not what I am saying. There has been 200 years plus of intensive searching of the Middle East. It is possible that they will find more, but we are in a world of diminishing returns concerning archaeological evidence concerning Middle East history.

As far as Genesis goes it is hopeless. There is faint hope, very faint, for some sort of smaller scale of Exodus.

My problem with this approach ( if I understand it ) is: Aren't we talking about Archaeology? Where evidence is extracted from the earth? How much of the geographic area in question has been excavated and processed at this point?

I'm sorry if it's a silly line of thinking. But, that's my hang up.

Well, ah actually more than you think. Modern remote sensing, and detailed aerial photography has covered everything. We know all the trade routes, oasis, mountains and springs in the Sinai, and they have dug up almost all of Egypt and Palestine.

As far as the Torah evidence goes it is comprehensive concerning the known history of the Hebrew language and the relationship with the Canaanites and Babylonians. Nonetheless I have to go by what has been found so far, and the current research.

 

[dybmh]

No this is not what I am saying. There has been 200 years plus of intensive searching of the Middle East. It is possible that they will find more, but we are in a world of diminishing returns concerning archaeological evidence concerning Middle East history.

As far as Genesis goes it is hopeless. There is faint hope, very faint, for some sort of smaller scale of Exodus.



Well, ah actually more than you think. Modern remote sensing, and detailed aerial photography has covered everything. We know all the trade routes, oasis, mountains and springs in the Sinai, and they have dug up almost all of Egypt and Palestine.

As far as the Torah evidence goes it is comprehensive concerning the known history of the Hebrew language and the relationship with the Canaanites and Babylonians. Nonetheless I have to go by what has been found so far, and the current research.

Thank you, this is exactly what I wanted to know.

 

[gnostic]

Moses spoke to God directly over 40 years, that gave ample time to get things right
Moses was educated in Egypt and had the ability to write things down with clarity
That makes a good start with the T in Tenach

The textual evidence for the Hebrew Bible is very strong
not to mention....

There is a greek translation
There is a Samaritan Pentateuch
There are other fragments
There is supporting archeology

and

Jesus believed it

There are no versions of Exodus and other books written in Bronze Age Egyptian hieroglyphs or hieratic, not even in Iron Age Egyptian demotic.

And if Moses really lived in the Late Bronze Age, then there are no evidence Torah existing in this time.

Ancient Hebrew alphabets don’t exist until the 10th century BCE (eg the Gezer Calendar and the Zayit Stone, are the oldest evidence of paleo-Hebrew inscriptions, and neither texts mentioned anything about Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David or Solomon.)

The oldest evidence you do have, is a tiny passage from Numbers 6 (Priestly Blessings), written on silver scroll found in Ketef Hinnom cave dating to between 630 and 588 BCE, so anywhere between Josiah’s reign and just before Jerusalem was sacked.

 

[dybmh]

@shunyadragon and @Wandering Monk ,

OK, Just a quick follow-up. I noticed that in ShunyaDragon's original comment... he said there is not evidence before 700BCE. And I thought it was 1000BCE based on linguistics. But that's not archaeology, so I wasn't going to bring it up if it was going to immediately ignored as "weak evidence". And that's what started the whole square dance with me trying to figure out how to introduce linguistic evidence in a discussion with Archaeologists... essentially.

I hope that clears up the confusion. Yes. 1000BCE matches what I've been researching as well. I think it's listed in the book I referenced earlier in this thread.

Can you provide any evidence of the existence of texts before ~700 BCE?

The fact that the pastoral Canaanite Hebrew in the Hills of Judea written language did not exist before 1000 BCE.

 

[whirlingmerc]

@shunyadragon and @Wandering Monk ,

OK, Just a quick follow-up. I noticed that in ShunyaDragon's original comment... he said there is not evidence before 700BCE. And I thought it was 1000BCE based on linguistics. But that's not archaeology, so I wasn't going to bring it up if it was going to immediately ignored as "weak evidence". And that's what started the whole square dance with me trying to figure out how to introduce linguistic evidence in a discussion with Archaeologists... essentially.

I hope that clears up the confusion. Yes. 1000BCE matches what I've been researching as well. I think it's listed in the book I referenced earlier in this thread.

Moses being educated by the finest schools in Egypt Pharaoh could buy says he was well able to write down the Torah as God gave it to him.

 

[shunyadragon]

@shunyadragon and @Wandering Monk ,

OK, Just a quick follow-up. I noticed that in ShunyaDragon's original comment... he said there is not evidence before 700 BCE. And I thought it was 1000BCE based on linguistics. But that's not archaeology, so I wasn't going to bring it up if it was going to immediately ignored as "weak evidence". And that's what started the whole square dance with me trying to figure out how to introduce linguistic evidence in a discussion with Archaeologists... essentially.

I hope that clears up the confusion. Yes. 1000 BCE matches what I've been researching as well. I think it's listed in the book I referenced earlier in this thread.

I acknowledge the possible range between ~1000 and ~700 BCE based on linguistics as the potential time of the compilation of part or most of the Pentateuch, and does not change the concept of the evolution of the edited compilation of the Pentateuch over a period of time. See the following as a good recent source:

From: Who Wrote the Torah?

Who Wrote the Torah?
Textual, Historical, Sociological, and Ideological Cornerstones of the Formation of the Pentateuch
By Konrad Schmid · Published 2018

"But when was the Pentateuch was composed? It is helpful at the outset to determine a time span in which its texts were written. For the terminus a quo, an important clarification is needed. We can only determine the beginnings of the earliest written versions of a text. In other words, this does not include a text’s oral prehistory. Many texts in the Bible, especially in the Pentateuch, go back to oral traditions that can be much older than their written counterparts. Therefore, the terminus a quo only determines the beginning of the written transmission of a text which, in turn, may have already been known as an oral tale or the like.[25]

Unlike many prophetic texts, Pentateuchal texts do not mention dates of authorship. One must therefore look for internal and external indicators in order to determine the date of their composition.

There is a basic observation relevant for determining the beginnings of the Pentateuch’s literary formation. We can safely determine a historical break in the ninth and eighth centuries B.C.E. in the cultural development of Israel and Judah. This point holds despite Richelle and Blum,[26] who provide sufficient evidence to include the late ninth century as the beginning of this watershed with regard to the development of Israel’s and Judah’s scribal culture. By this point, a certain level of statehood and literacy was being achieved, and these two elements go together. That is, the more developed a state, the more bureaucracy and education are needed—especially in the area of writing.

When one considers the number of inscriptions found in ancient Israel and Judah, the numbers clearly increase in the eighth century, and this increase should probably be interpreted as indicating a cultural development in ancient Israel and Judah. This claim can be corroborated by looking at the texts that have been found and that can be dated to the tenth century B.C.E., such as the Gezer Calendar;[27] the potsherd from Jerusalem;[28] the Baal inscription from Bet Shemesh;[29] the Tel Zayit Abecedary;[30] and the Qeiyafa ostracon.[31] All of them stem from or around the tenth century B.C.E. The modesty of their content and writing style alike are easy to discern.

If we move forward about one century to the ninth century B.C.E., then the evidence is much more telling, even if some of the evidence is in Aramaic and not Hebrew. The first monumental stela from the region is the Mesha Stela, which is written in Moabite and which contains the first documented reference to Yhwh and Israel as we know them.[32] Another monumental text is the Tel Dan stela in Aramaic, best known for mentioning the “Beth David.”[33]

Still another piece of evidence is the eighth-century Aramaic wall inscription from Tell Deir Allah,[34] which mentions the prophet Balaam that appears in Numbers 22–24. Balaam’s story in the inscription is completely different from the narrative about him in the Bible, yet it remains one of the earliest piece of evidence for a literary text in the near vicinity of ancient Israel.

Along with others, Erhard Blum has recently argued convincingly for interpreting the site of Tell Deir Allah as a school, because of a late Hellenistic parallel to the building architecture of Trimithis in Egypt (ca. fourth century C.E.).[35] This interpretation as a school might also be true for Kuntillet Ajrud, where we also have writings on the wall.[36]

The landmark set in the ninth and eighth century B.C.E. by the high amount and new quality of written texts in ancient Israel and Judah corresponds to another relevant feature. At this time, Israel begins to be perceived by its neighbors as a state. That is, not only internal changes in the development of writing, but also external, contemporaneous perceptions hint that Israel and Judah had reached a level of cultural development in the eighth–ninth centuries to enable literary text production."

 

[dybmh]

I acknowledge the possible range between ~1000 and ~700 BCE based on linguistics as the potential time of the compilation of part or most of the Pentateuch, and does not change the concept of the evolution of the edited compilation of the Pentateuch over a period of time. See the following as a good recent source:

From: Who Wrote the Torah?

Who Wrote the Torah?
Textual, Historical, Sociological, and Ideological Cornerstones of the Formation of the Pentateuch
By Konrad Schmid · Published 2018

"But when was the Pentateuch was composed? It is helpful at the outset to determine a time span in which its texts were written. For the terminus a quo, an important clarification is needed. We can only determine the beginnings of the earliest written versions of a text. In other words, this does not include a text’s oral prehistory. Many texts in the Bible, especially in the Pentateuch, go back to oral traditions that can be much older than their written counterparts. Therefore, the terminus a quo only determines the beginning of the written transmission of a text which, in turn, may have already been known as an oral tale or the like.[25]

Unlike many prophetic texts, Pentateuchal texts do not mention dates of authorship. One must therefore look for internal and external indicators in order to determine the date of their composition.

There is a basic observation relevant for determining the beginnings of the Pentateuch’s literary formation. We can safely determine a historical break in the ninth and eighth centuries B.C.E. in the cultural development of Israel and Judah. This point holds despite Richelle and Blum,[26] who provide sufficient evidence to include the late ninth century as the beginning of this watershed with regard to the development of Israel’s and Judah’s scribal culture. By this point, a certain level of statehood and literacy was being achieved, and these two elements go together. That is, the more developed a state, the more bureaucracy and education are needed—especially in the area of writing.

When one considers the number of inscriptions found in ancient Israel and Judah, the numbers clearly increase in the eighth century, and this increase should probably be interpreted as indicating a cultural development in ancient Israel and Judah. This claim can be corroborated by looking at the texts that have been found and that can be dated to the tenth century B.C.E., such as the Gezer Calendar;[27] the potsherd from Jerusalem;[28] the Baal inscription from Bet Shemesh;[29] the Tel Zayit Abecedary;[30] and the Qeiyafa ostracon.[31] All of them stem from or around the tenth century B.C.E. The modesty of their content and writing style alike are easy to discern.

If we move forward about one century to the ninth century B.C.E., then the evidence is much more telling, even if some of the evidence is in Aramaic and not Hebrew. The first monumental stela from the region is the Mesha Stela, which is written in Moabite and which contains the first documented reference to Yhwh and Israel as we know them.[32] Another monumental text is the Tel Dan stela in Aramaic, best known for mentioning the “Beth David.”[33]

Still another piece of evidence is the eighth-century Aramaic wall inscription from Tell Deir Allah,[34] which mentions the prophet Balaam that appears in Numbers 22–24. Balaam’s story in the inscription is completely different from the narrative about him in the Bible, yet it remains one of the earliest piece of evidence for a literary text in the near vicinity of ancient Israel.

Along with others, Erhard Blum has recently argued convincingly for interpreting the site of Tell Deir Allah as a school, because of a late Hellenistic parallel to the building architecture of Trimithis in Egypt (ca. fourth century C.E.).[35] This interpretation as a school might also be true for Kuntillet Ajrud, where we also have writings on the wall.[36]

The landmark set in the ninth and eighth century B.C.E. by the high amount and new quality of written texts in ancient Israel and Judah corresponds to another relevant feature. At this time, Israel begins to be perceived by its neighbors as a state. That is, not only internal changes in the development of writing, but also external, contemporaneous perceptions hint that Israel and Judah had reached a level of cultural development in the eighth–ninth centuries to enable literary text production."

Here's a question. It's not evidence. It's a curiosity. What about the mezzuzah and tefillin? Certainly you don't think those didn't exist prior to 900BCE?

 

[dybmh]

@sooda ,

Where did the Israelites borrow the ideas for a mezzuzah and for tefillin from?

 

[whirlingmerc]

I acknowledge the possible range between ~1000 and ~700 BCE based on linguistics as the potential time of the compilation of part or most of the Pentateuch, and does not change the concept of the evolution of the edited compilation of the Pentateuch over a period of time. See the following as a good recent source:

From: Who Wrote the Torah?

Who Wrote the Torah?
Textual, Historical, Sociological, and Ideological Cornerstones of the Formation of the Pentateuch
By Konrad Schmid · Published 2018

"But when was the Pentateuch was composed? It is helpful at the outset to determine a time span in which its texts were written. For the terminus a quo, an important clarification is needed. We can only determine the beginnings of the earliest written versions of a text. In other words, this does not include a text’s oral prehistory. Many texts in the Bible, especially in the Pentateuch, go back to oral traditions that can be much older than their written counterparts. Therefore, the terminus a quo only determines the beginning of the written transmission of a text which, in turn, may have already been known as an oral tale or the like.[25]

Unlike many prophetic texts, Pentateuchal texts do not mention dates of authorship. One must therefore look for internal and external indicators in order to determine the date of their composition.

There is a basic observation relevant for determining the beginnings of the Pentateuch’s literary formation. We can safely determine a historical break in the ninth and eighth centuries B.C.E. in the cultural development of Israel and Judah. This point holds despite Richelle and Blum,[26] who provide sufficient evidence to include the late ninth century as the beginning of this watershed with regard to the development of Israel’s and Judah’s scribal culture. By this point, a certain level of statehood and literacy was being achieved, and these two elements go together. That is, the more developed a state, the more bureaucracy and education are needed—especially in the area of writing.

When one considers the number of inscriptions found in ancient Israel and Judah, the numbers clearly increase in the eighth century, and this increase should probably be interpreted as indicating a cultural development in ancient Israel and Judah. This claim can be corroborated by looking at the texts that have been found and that can be dated to the tenth century B.C.E., such as the Gezer Calendar;[27] the potsherd from Jerusalem;[28] the Baal inscription from Bet Shemesh;[29] the Tel Zayit Abecedary;[30] and the Qeiyafa ostracon.[31] All of them stem from or around the tenth century B.C.E. The modesty of their content and writing style alike are easy to discern.

If we move forward about one century to the ninth century B.C.E., then the evidence is much more telling, even if some of the evidence is in Aramaic and not Hebrew. The first monumental stela from the region is the Mesha Stela, which is written in Moabite and which contains the first documented reference to Yhwh and Israel as we know them.[32] Another monumental text is the Tel Dan stela in Aramaic, best known for mentioning the “Beth David.”[33]

Still another piece of evidence is the eighth-century Aramaic wall inscription from Tell Deir Allah,[34] which mentions the prophet Balaam that appears in Numbers 22–24. Balaam’s story in the inscription is completely different from the narrative about him in the Bible, yet it remains one of the earliest piece of evidence for a literary text in the near vicinity of ancient Israel.

Along with others, Erhard Blum has recently argued convincingly for interpreting the site of Tell Deir Allah as a school, because of a late Hellenistic parallel to the building architecture of Trimithis in Egypt (ca. fourth century C.E.).[35] This interpretation as a school might also be true for Kuntillet Ajrud, where we also have writings on the wall.[36]

The landmark set in the ninth and eighth century B.C.E. by the high amount and new quality of written texts in ancient Israel and Judah corresponds to another relevant feature. At this time, Israel begins to be perceived by its neighbors as a state. That is, not only internal changes in the development of writing, but also external, contemporaneous perceptions hint that Israel and Judah had reached a level of cultural development in the eighth–ninth centuries to enable literary text production."

circa 1440 to 1400 BC more likely
we even got a jewish calendar where day 1 year 1 was the exodus

 

[whirlingmerc]

QUOTE="dybm h, post: 6419764, member: 65725"]@sooda ,

Where did the Israelites borrow the ideas for a mezzuzah and for tefillin from?[/QUOTE]


Some ideas are similar not because they are borrowed but God might prepare the world for his revelation

For example in China the 'year monster'



is supposed to come from the sky by their mythology and will eat the oldest child unless they put big red banners on their doors and make lots of noise at Chinese New Year.



That is remarkably similar to Passover, as Chinese Christians know, but the origins are independent. However it would make sense God might prepare the world for things he does by allowing superficially similar mythologies to 'the real deal'

 

[dybmh]

Some ideas are similar not because they are borrowed but God might prepare the world for his revelation

For example in China the 'year monster' is supposed to come by their mythology and will eat the oldest child unless they put big red banners on their doors and make lots of noise at Chinese New Year. That is remarkably similar to Passover but the origins are independent.

Yes... but... the mezzuzah and the tefillin are a very specific cultural practice. I am wondering if there was ever any other culture which did anything even **remotely** similar. I propose that those were not "borrowed" as Sooda ( hopefully unintentionally ) implied.

Also, I'm glad you replied.

I'm curious about the calendar.

circa 1440 to 1400 BC more likely
we even got a jewish calendar where day 1 year 1 was the exodus

What do the letters look like? Do you have pictures?