Was the Tanakh falsified?

[Rival]

Jews figured that out well over 2500 years ago.

Did they?

 

[sooda]

I am looking at the evidence of actual known texts, and comparative evidence with older texts from the older cultures. The fact that the pastoral Canaanite Hebrew in the Hills of Judea written language did not exist before !000 BCE.

The early evidence which is scant is the Hebrews dialect used a primitive form of written Canaanite language. Also Canaanite idols are found in the Hebrew villages before this date.

Archaeology is an important source of evidence, and there is no evidence for Exodus in Egypt, the Sinai or Palestine.

Yes there were 'some' Hebrew slaves in Egypt, because Egypt invaded Palestine a number of times, but the scale of the claim of Exodus is beyond any reasonable known evidence. We can look into the actual chronological evidence in Egypt and Palestine if you like.

Good post..

 

[dybmh]

Any evidence, or convincing evidence?

Are u looking for plausible or probable?

I am looking at the evidence of actual known texts, and comparative evidence with older texts from the older cultures. The fact that the pastoral Canaanite Hebrew in the Hills of Judea written language did not exist before !000 BCE. The early evidence which is scant is the Hebrews dialect used a primitive form of written Canaanite language. Also Canaanite idols are found in the Hebrew villages before this date.

Archaeology is an important source of evidence, and there is no evidence for Exodus in Egypt, the Sinai or Palestine. Yes there were 'some' Hebrew slaves in Egypt, because Egypt invaded Palestine a number of times, but the scale of the claim of Exodus is beyond any reasonable known evidence. We can look into the actual chronological evidence in Egypt and Palestine if you like.

So probable, then? Or beyond the shadow of a doubt?

 

[sooda]

Did they?

Absolutely.. They understand the impact of didactic literature. If your mother said to you. "remember the boy who cried wolf" wouldn't you know the lesson immediately?

 

[Rival]

Absolutely.. They understand the impact of didactic literature. If your mother said to you. "remember the boy who cried wolf" wouldn't you know the lesson immediately?

I guess you've picked a sect of Judaism you personally agree with and discarded the rest. There are far, far more opinions than 'It's all a morality tale.'

 

[shunyadragon]

So probable, then? Or beyond the shadow of a doubt?

I am not sure where your going here, because there are two possible versions here, in particular for Genesis and Exodus. One is what is recorded in the text, and what is supported by the objective verifiable evidence. As far as Genesis goes it is clearly mythology, and absolutely no evidence of Creation as described not a flood as described.

Based on the evidence I will go with far beyond any reasonable doubt.

 

[sooda]

I guess you've picked a sect of Judaism you personally agree with and discarded the rest. There are far, far more opinions than 'It's all a morality tale.'

I have read rambam.

 

[Rival]

I have read rambam.

Yes, an opinion.

 

[dybmh]

I am not sure where your going here, because there are two possible versions here, in particular for Genesis and Exodus. One is what is recorded in the text, and what is supported by the objective verifiable evidence.

Based on the evidence I will go with far beyond any reasonable doubt.

Right.

This is how I understand what you're saying:

"If there was evidence of any of this stuff, it would have been discovered already."

My problem with this approach ( if I understand it ) is: Aren't we talking about Archaeology? Where evidence is extracted from the earth? How much of the geographic area in question has been excavated and processed at this point?

I'm sorry if it's a silly line of thinking. But, that's my hang up.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Right.

This is how I understand what you're saying:

"If there was evidence of any of this stuff, it would have been discovered already."

My problem with this approach ( if I understand it ) is: Aren't we talking about Archaeology? Where evidence is extracted from the earth? How much of the geographic area in question has been excavated and processed at this point?

I'm sorry if it's a silly line of thinking. But, that's my hang up at this point.

If 2.5 million people Israelites were living in the wilderness somewhere near modern Israel, wouldn't there be obvious evidence of this? Burials, shards of pottery, utensils, latrines and so on?

 

[dybmh]

If 2.5 million people Israelites were living in the wilderness somewhere near modern Israel, wouldn't there be obvious evidence of this? Burials, shards of pottery, utensils, latrines and so on?

Not according to the story... The clouds of glory...

although this doesn't meet the threshold of plausible

 

[Wandering Monk]

Not according to the story... The clouds of glory...

Not seeing anything in the story that would preclude any of the things I named.

So, nobody died in the wilderness, or defecated, or dropped a utensil?

 

[dybmh]

Not seeing anything in the story that would preclude any of the things I named.

So, nobody died in the wilderness, or defecated, or dropped a utensil?

I think I could probably find midrash on this. At least the pooping part. ( Wow, words I never thought I would utter ).

 

[Wandering Monk]

I think I could probably find midrash on this. At least the pooping part. ( Wow, words I never thought I would utter ).

I have read a d'rash somewhere that because they ate manna, they didn't need to defecate. Magic! Did their animals eat manna too?

But what about the 'quail coming out their noses.

Anyway, the story is ludicrous and the point was that there is NO empirical evidence yet of an Exodus of the Biblical sort in the archaeological record.

 

[dybmh]

Magic!

Yup.

The thing is, at this point in the story, we've already had to accept a gazillion other super-natural phenomena. Not the least of which, the plagues.

 

[sooda]

Yes, an opinion.

Are you Jewish or just Noahide?

 

[Rival]

Are you Jewish or just Noahide?

Why does this matter? The Rambam presents an opinion, as does the Ramban and others. There are many Jewish and Noahide folks who take these stories literally, regardless what Maimonides says, and they are perfectly entitled to do so.

 

[dybmh]

Anyway, the story is ludicrous and the point was that there is NO empirical evidence yet of an Exodus of the Biblical sort in the archaeological record.

Right.

But what @shunyadragon asked for was evidence before 700BCE... I think. It was very specific. I feel like I could come up with some evidence to push that date back. But what's the point if after I do that, my evidence is ignored because it's a drop in the bucket compared to: "If any of this stuff is real, we would have found evidence of it by now."

That's why I asked the question.

Now, I have zero problems with what you said above. It's ludicrous, lacking any empirical evidence of an exodus. Right.

I'm just talking about a date (700BCE), and a scroll The Torah.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Right.

But what @shunyadragon asked for was evidence before 700BCE... I think. It was very specific. I feel like I could come up with some evidence to push that date back. But what's the point if after I do that, my evidence is ignored because it's a drop in the bucket compared to: "If any of this stuff is real, we would have found evidence of it by now."

That's why I asked the question.

Now, I have zero problems with what you said above. It's ludicrous, lacking any empirical evidence of an exodus. Right.

I'm just talking about a date (700BCE), and a scroll The Torah.

IIRC, Israel Finkelstein is a proponent of the idea the the Torah was not written until the 8th century BCE.

 

[dybmh]

IIRC, Israel Finkelstein is a proponent of the idea the the Torah was not written until the 8th century BCE.

I am so sorry dude, but I don't know who that is. Am I supposed to?