Was the Qur'an created or is it uncreated? - Muslims only

[The_Fisher_King]

This debate is for Muslims only, of whatever persuasion

Salams

Do you believe the Holy Qur'an was created or has it always existed (i.e. is uncreated)? Please support your position with references to the Qur'an and Ahadith and where appropriate scholarly exegesis.

Wassalam

 

[Shakeel]

Majority of the scholars view it as uncreated.

In this verse Allah separates between His creation and His commandment.

7:54 "His verily is all creation and commandment."

Which would imply His commandment is not created. Hence the Qur'an is not created.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Which would imply His commandment is not created.

How does this verse imply that exactly?

 

[Shakeel]

How does this verse imply that exactly?

By separating it from His creation.

Like if I say, I want all the furniture and the chairs. It wouldn't make sense because chairs are furniture.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

By separating it from His creation.

Like if I say, I want all the furniture and the chairs. It wouldn't make sense because chairs are furniture.

Okay, I think I see, you mean verbally within the one sentence? And why do you think the reference to His Commandment here is a reference to His Qur'an? The earlier part of that Verse, after all, refers to His Command but in the context of the sun, moon, and stars being subject to His Command.

 

[Shakeel]

Okay, I think I see, you mean verbally within the one sentence? And why do you think the reference to His Commandment here is a reference to His Qur'an? The earlier part of that Verse, after all, refers to His Command but in the context of the sun, moon, and stars being subject to His Command.

A command is usually something expressed with words and the Qur'an is Allah's word. I'm not saying it is specifically about the Qur'an, but the Qur'an also falls under the category of His speech.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

A command is usually something expressed with words and the Qur'an is Allah's word. I'm not saying it is specifically about the Qur'an, but the Qur'an also falls under the category of His speech.

Since it's possible that Allah could give a Command without expressing it in words, particularly a Command to the sun, moon, and stars, do you have another Verse from the Qur'an or other support for your position (other than it being the view of the majority of scholars)?

 

[Shakeel]

Since it's possible that Allah could give a Command without expressing it in words, particularly a Command to the sun, moon, and stars, do you have another Verse from the Qur'an or other support for your position (other than it being the view of the majority of scholars)?

Why do you think His command to the sun and the moon and the stars is without words?

36:82 "His command is only when He intends a thing that He says to it, "Be," and it is."

Allah's speech is one of His attributes and His attributes cannot be created.

If Allah's command was created then the creation of the command would require a command.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Why do you think His command to the sun and the moon and the stars is without words?

The question I had in my head was 'Do the sun, moon, and stars hear or respond to words?'

36:82 "His command is only when He intends a thing that He says to it, "Be," and it is."

But this Verse certainly strengthens your position.

Allah's speech is one of His attributes and His attributes cannot be created.

What do you think of the argument that not all of Allah's Attributes are necessarily eternal or uncreated? Specifically, that any of Allah's Attributes that require Allah to do something are not eternal because they they require something to do an action to and necessarily that something is a created thing.

If Allah's command was created then the creation of the command would require a command.

That is a good point.

 

[Shakeel]

The question I had in my head was 'Do the sun, moon, and stars hear or respond to words?'

41:11 "Then He directed Himself to the heaven while it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come [into being], willingly or by compulsion." They said, "We have come willingly."'

What do you think of the argument that not all of Allah's Attributes are necessarily eternal or uncreated?

It would mean He had to create for Himself something to make Himself more perfect, which is not possible.

The Qur'an contains the knowledge of Allah and saying that that knowledge is created would imply Allah did not always have that knowledge, which implies imperfection.

Specifically, that any of Allah's Attributes that require Allah to do something are not eternal because they they require something to do an action to and necessarily that something is a created thing.

What could require Allah to do something? I don't understand the question.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

41:11 "Then He directed Himself to the heaven while it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come [into being], willingly or by compulsion." They said, "We have come willingly."'

That Verse answers that question!

It would mean He had to create for Himself something to make Himself more perfect, which is not possible.

The Qur'an contains the knowledge of Allah and saying that that knowledge is created would imply Allah did not always have that knowledge, which implies imperfection.

Both good points.

What could require Allah to do something? I don't understand the question.

So let me try to rephrase. Allah's Attribute of Issuing Commands/Speech means that Allah has to issue a Command/Speak to a thing (e.g. the sun, moon). If that Command/Speech is Eternal then that thing to which Allah issued His Command/Spoke would also be eternal. But of course the sun or moon in this example are of course not eternal, they are created things. Hence Allah's Attribute of Issuing Commands/Speaking cannot be eternal, so the argument would run.

 

[Shakeel]

Allah's Attribute of Issuing Commands/Speech means that Allah has to issue a Command/Speak to a thing (e.g. the sun, moon)

I don't know of that being true. Notice in the verse 36:82 it says "His command is only when He intends a thing that He says to it, "Be," and it is.

If that Command/Speech is Eternal then that thing to which Allah issued His Command/Spoke would also be eternal.

I don't see that as logical.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

I don't know of that being true. Notice in the verse 36:82 it says "His command is only when He intends a thing that He says to it, "Be," and it is.

That sounds like issuing a Command/speaking to it to me.

I don't see that as logical.

Okay, let me try a different tack. Perhaps the Command/Spoken Act can only derive its meaning from being issued to something. i.e. It doesn't make sense to talk of a command being issued until it is issued to something.

 

[Shakeel]

That sounds like issuing a Command/speaking to it to me.

Yes, to it. It is the created thing.

Perhaps the Command/Spoken Act can only derive its meaning from being issued to something. i.e. It doesn't make sense to talk of a command being issued until it is issued to something.

For people that is so. Allah's commanding and speech is not like our speech. You can't compare them side by side because we don't understand all about Allah. Allah is not limited by time. He created time.

If you say His speech is created, you're saying He had to create something in order to express Himself, which would make Him needy and therefore imperfect.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Yes, to it. It is the created thing.

That was my point.

For people that is so. Allah's commanding and speech is not like our speech. You can't compare them side by side because we don't understand all about Allah.

My argument makes logical sense. I don't see why it couldn't apply to Allah. Just saying it doesn't apply because we don't understand everything about Allah sounds like a bit of a get-out clause to me.

If you say His speech is created, you're saying He had to create something in order to express Himself, which would make Him needy and therefore imperfect.

This is a stronger argument, to my mind.

 

[Shakeel]

My argument makes logical sense. I don't see why it couldn't apply to Allah. Just saying it doesn't apply because we don't understand everything about Allah sounds like a bit of a get-out clause to me.

Your argument, which sounds like a disbeliever's or a doubter's argument, is based on the idea that you can freely compare man to Allah and expect your conclusions to be accurate. It is an issue.

This entire question isn't relevant. If you want to be a Muslim - I don't know if you are or aren't, but if that's what you are or want to be - your time is better spent on relevant issues and not on the doubts raised by the disbelievers and the hypocrites. They never cease throwing doubts on your way.

You easily end up either disbelieving, misunderstanding your religion or wasting precious time on something useless.

If you claim to believe in something and take what the people who are most learned about that issue and try with all your might to shred to pieces whatever they have said about it, it makes one wonder if it is the religion you want or just to satisfy your desires of the moment.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Your argument, which sounds like a disbeliever's or a doubter's argument, is based on the idea that you can freely compare man to Allah and expect your conclusions to be accurate. It is an issue.

This entire question isn't relevant. If you want to be a Muslim - I don't know if you are or aren't, but if that's what you are or want to be - your time is better spent on relevant issues and not on the doubts raised by the disbelievers and the hypocrites. They never cease throwing doubts on your way.

You easily end up either disbelieving, misunderstanding your religion or wasting precious time on something useless.

If you claim to believe in something and take what the people who are most learned about that issue and try with all your might to shred to pieces whatever they have said about it, it makes one wonder if it is the religion you want or just to satisfy your desires of the moment.

I'm debating something which was certainly in the past a significant issue in the Muslim community and whilst it is the position of Sunni scholars that the Qur'an is Uncreated and Eternal there are those on the Shi'a side of the fence who believe it to be created. That still makes it a question worthy of discussion and debate.

 

[Shakeel]

there are those on the Shi'a side of the fence who believe it to be created.

They believe a lot of nonsense that can't be taken seriously and which contradicts the Qur'an.

If you don't know that, what is the point of the question? You would be well advised to ask questions that are relevant to you, if practicing islam is your goal. Once you know the basics, you can dwell on these things when time permits you to.

If you simply want to argue for the sake of arguing and don't value your time more than that, then you're free to dwell on any doubts you like. It's not the Islamic way though.

That still makes it a question worthy of discussion and debate.

The scholars have effectively seemed to put an end to that need. If someone should bring it up it should be a scholar or someone highly knowledgeable.

If you really want to know, read about it, don't ask on a forum. Asking here, says you want to argue, not that you want to know.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

They believe a lot of nonsense that can't be taken seriously and which contradicts the Qur'an.

I believe in a more inclusive approach to debate, which takes what everyone has to say seriously.

If you don't know that, what is the point of the question? You would be well advised to ask questions that are relevant to you, if practicing islam is your goal. Once you know the basics, you can dwell on these things when time permits you to.

If you simply want to argue for the sake of arguing and don't value your time more than that, then you're free to dwell on any doubts you like. It's not the Islamic way though.

Questioning things does I believe bring us closer to a better understanding of things. I have certainly gained something through us debating this issue, so thank you for your time in that regard.

If you really want to know, read about it, don't ask on a forum. Asking here, says you want to argue, not that you want to know.

I believe a debate forum is a good place to question things and thus come to a better understanding of things.

If you come here only to argue for a particular position, that is your right, of course. But it is not the only reason to be on a debate forum.

 

[Shakeel]

I believe in a more inclusive approach to debate, which takes what everyone has to say seriously.

That's alright if you have no firm beliefs of your own.

Questioning things does I believe bring us closer to a better understanding of things

I didn't say anything about questioning, though, again, if you want to actually learn, you'd be better off listening and reading and talking little. It isn't wise to make all your questions publicly known.

I have certainly gained something through us debating this issue, so thank you for your time in that regard.

Whatever you learned you would probably have learned from here
The Qur’an is the word of Allah, may He be exalted, and is not created - Islam Question & Answer
Explained much better and you wouldn't have had to show others your doubts.

I believe a debate forum is a good place to question things and thus come to a better understanding of things.

If you want to know what it is like to care for the terminally ill or how to design your own house, it may be so. But Islam is not something that changes according to each person's opinion. The people on this forum are extremely ignorant about Islam. There is no logical reason at all to expect them to teach you about it.

Why not read a book on the topic, listen to a lecture on the topic or go through the articles on the topic?