Was the Occupation of the Capitol Yesterday an Act of Sedition?

[Callisto]

I've enuf experience in court to know that the law is not
a fixed thing. If someone seems largely removed from
a plot with terrible consequences, they can expect much
lighter treatment.
So the person who bought a clock to tell time, & later
discovered it was used to make a bomb by someone
else, could expect to avoid prosecution.

Your experience was not questioned nor even germane to the topic unless to demonstrate you've personally been involved in a similar attack and are offering first hand comparison. The clock example is incompatible to this situation. Mistake of fact works as a viable defense in fairly limited situations, this sort of event not being one. Claiming "I didn't know" in this situation doesn't work, they knowingly support the reasons and participated in the actions for being there which demonstrates shared intent, regardless of whether they knew about others incorporating bombs to achieve that intent. That makes them an accessory, and depending on the specifics of the circumstance that could escalate to accomplice.

 

[Revoltingest]

Your experience was not questioned nor even germane to the topic unless to demonstrate you've personally been involved in a similar attack and are offering first hand comparison. The clock example is incompatible to this situation. Mistake of fact works as a viable defense in fairly limited situations, this sort of event not being one. Claiming "I didn't know" in this situation doesn't work, they knowingly support the reasons and participated in the actions for being there which demonstrates shared intent, regardless of whether they knew about others incorporating bombs to achieve that intent. That makes them an accessory, and depending on the specifics of the circumstance that could escalate to accomplice.

We'll agree to disagree about the culpability of the
clock buyer with no intent of bomb making.

 

[Callisto]

We'll agree to disagree about the culpability of the
clock buyer with no intent of bomb making.

The clock buyer is not a relevant example.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Aha!! This is the thread that I was looking for:

 

[Kenny]

Sorry, but what the above is is just what's called a "false equivalency". Plus, one wrong does not justify or excuse another.

I have not seen a single post here at RF whereas any violence at a BLM rally was justified as being acceptable. Nor does the BLM staff encourage violence. See: https://blacklivesmatter.com/about/

Also, you might want to check other media sources since we're reading and hearing all sorts of crap that appear to be just more conspiratorial nonsense. If one watches Newsmax, or even Fox, one is again leaving themselves open to "slants". Even the WSJ editorial page today blames this all on Trump and his supporters, and the WSJ is owned by Murdock.

The Republican Party needs to decide what it wants to be: a serious and respectable party, which it used to be, or the party of a man who attempted a coup to overthrow an election. And you, as a man of the cloth, also needs to make a choice as well, imo, namely are you going to deal with facts and call out that which is clearly wrong under the Constitution and basic Judeo-Christian teachings, or are you going to parrot secular right-wing politics? Sorry to be so blunt.

You know I love ya like a brother, but I honestly feel you need to sit down and make some tough choices, and also to deal with your congregation in a bluntly honest way. If you screwed up-- admit it-- and then ask for their forgiveness. I don't know what you did or didn't do with them, so I'm not assuming anything one way or the other, so that above advice, wanted or not, may not apply.

As it is, the priest at the church my wife and I attend overstepped his role and actually endorsed a presidential candidate and party, and some congregants are really upset with him on that, and it wouldn't surprise me if he hears something from the archdiocese. A priest at a downriver Catholic church did this a couple of months ago and was told by the archdiocese that he is not to endorse candidates nor parties, and he did publicly apologize days later. Yes, he has the right and the obligation to speak to the issues, but not to the point of endorsement. Matter of fact, to endorse a candidate or party is in violation of federal law if that body has tax-exempt status.

Take care, and I pray and hope you remain a friend after reading the above.

Let me say this... as a human being...

I think after all of this hullabaloo, I think I overreacted in this thread. That is why it is good to have one sword sharpened by the sword of another... it means you love me!

Proverbs 3:12
For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

Thanks dad!

It is indeed a false equivalent.

 

[Revoltingest]

The clock buyer is not a relevant example.

Someone brought it up, so I addressed it.

 

[ecco]

What's a fire extinguisher?

Your Honor, when I picked up that fire extinguisher, it was to put out any fires that may start. How it came to bash that Capital Policeman's head in, I have no idea.​

 

[metis]

Thanks dad!

"Dad"!!! C'mon, I ain't that old, you little pipsqueak!

Thanks for the above as I was worried that I overreacted and could lose a good friend.

While I'm at it, have a Most Blessed Lord's Day.

 

[Kenny]

"Dad"!!! C'mon, I ain't that old, you little pipsqueak!

Thanks for the above as I was worried that I overreacted and could lose a good friend.

While I'm at it, have a Most Blessed Lord's Day.

As always, my friend, I hold you in deep respect and listen carefully... even when the "old man" is wrong.

 

[Ponder This]

I think your chronology is off. The march and invasion happened after Trump's speech.

2021 storming of the United States Capitol - Wikipedia

Hmm. Perhaps there's some confusion about the chronology. So let's clear that up! At "1:00 p.m.: Rioters storm the outer Capitol Police barricade west of the Capitol building." Trump's rally was ongoing at that time.
The riot started before those at the Trump rally approached the capital building. It is interesting timing though - to start a riot before protesters from a rally show up. Why weren't the people who started the riot at the rally?
It also looks as if you are correct that the capitol building itself was breached at 2:15 pm (after the Trump rally had ended).

 

[crossfire]

Well, if incitement is part of the crime of insurrection, then Trump appears to be guilty, his sons obviously more so.

18 U.S. Code § 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection

Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.​

Starting at 8:00 to 9:15 it is pretty clear that Trump himself is guilty of this.
Must-see new video shows Capitol riot was way worse than we thought

 

[ecco]

Hmm. Perhaps there's some confusion about the chronology. So let's clear that up! At "1:00 p.m.: Rioters storm the outer Capitol Police barricade west of the Capitol building." Trump's rally was ongoing at that time.
The riot started before those at the Trump rally approached the capital building.

Perhaps you have never heard of social media. Perhaps you are not aware that those at the capital when Trump was speaking could follow his speech on their cell phones.

In any event, Trump, Guiliani, Cruz, Graham, Powell have been spreading the lie that the election was fraudulent and stolen for over a month. Trump and Guiliani have been pushing for a march on the capital for weeks.

 

[Ponder This]

Perhaps you have never heard of social media. Perhaps you are not aware that those at the capital when Trump was speaking could follow his speech on their cell phones.

In any event, Trump, Guiliani, Cruz, Graham, Powell have been spreading the lie that the election was fraudulent and stolen for over a month. Trump and Guiliani have been pushing for a march on the capital for weeks.

Sure cell phones and social media... but I'm skeptical that they really were listening to Trump. First of all, Trump didn't call for violence or for breaking into the capital building. In fact, Trump called for his supporters to cheer for their representatives during the electoral process. Moreover, Trump twice called for peace, non-violence, and respect for law enforcement in his tweets. In a third tweet, Trump said "go home" and got banned from twitter.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

2021 storming of the United States Capitol - Wikipedia

Hmm. Perhaps there's some confusion about the chronology. So let's clear that up! At "1:00 p.m.: Rioters storm the outer Capitol Police barricade west of the Capitol building." Trump's rally was ongoing at that time.
The riot started before those at the Trump rally approached the capital building. It is interesting timing though - to start a riot before protesters from a rally show up. Why weren't the people who started the riot at the rally?
It also looks as if you are correct that the capitol building itself was breached at 2:15 pm (after the Trump rally had ended).

Please stop altering reality and making lame excuses for the President inciting an insurrection. Here’s the timeline:

11 a.m.
Trump’s “Save America Rally” begins first with the president's sons Eric and Donald Trump Jr., then his lawyer, Rudy Guiliani. Trump starts speaking shortly before noon at about 11:50 a.m. and says, “And after this, we're going to walk down there, and I'll be there with you, we're going to walk down ... to the Capitol and we are going to cheer on our brave senators and congressmen and women.” Trump speaks for more than an hour. At the conclusion, thousands walk to the Capitol.

1 p.m.
Lawmakers gather for a joint session in the House of Representatives chamber to count Electoral College votes.

1:10 p.m.
Rioters begin grappling with police on the Capitol steps.

... There was plenty of time for people to hear Trump’s incitement and then go storm the Capitol. And in fact we have video of Ashley Babbit live-streaming after the rally walking towards the Capitol. And we have video of her being shot, just steps from lawmakers, by what may have been Mike Pence’s Secret Service while trying to breach a barricaded door inside the Capitol.

Here’s Ashli Babbitt live-streaming as she and a large crowd walk from the rally to the Capitol after listening to Trump’s speech:

And here she is tragically being shot dead while storming the Capitol:

Aren’t you ashamed of altering reality to minimize this tragedy?

Source: Timeline: How a Trump mob stormed the US Capitol, forcing Washington into lockdown

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Certainly I would wonder if what you are saying is that one was OK but the other wasn't.

I wasn't at Portland but some reported:

"When the police and federal officers came out to protect the building, Antifa began “launching projectiles at the officers with sling shots. These projectiles included large rocks, full cans, and bottles. Demonstrators also threw lit commercial grade fireworks, which landed inside the broken glass doors of the federal courthouse.”

They also continued to set fires in the street.

They also pushed dumpsters on fire toward the building.

Then the radicals launched mortars into the Federal Courthouse through the broken glass doors and set the building on fire."

Sounds pretty dangerous to me.

"Federal officers in Portland suffered 113 eye injuries from lasers, DHS official says" NYP - another title

"Federal court records detail some of the more serious injuries among the officers, including broken bones, hearing and eye damage and chemical burns."

Burns, bloody wounds, broken bones: Injuries mount at Portland protests

So, maybe you should reconsider?

The violence in Portland was unacceptable. Here’s candidate Joe Biden condemning that violence:

Joe Biden for President: Official Campaign Website Statement by Vice President Joe Biden on the Deadly Violence in Portland |

As other posters have already pointed out, there is no comparison between the way Biden responded to Portland and the way Trump incited an insurrection.

Two wrongs don’t make a right. Enough with the excuses and distraction. Trump is the President and he’s responsible for what he did, no matter what happened in Portland months ago. Why don’t we all join together as Americans and agree this has gone too far and is unacceptable.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Sure cell phones and social media... but I'm skeptical that they really were listening to Trump. First of all, Trump didn't call for violence or for breaking into the capital building. In fact, Trump called for his supporters to cheer for their representatives during the electoral process. Moreover, Trump twice called for peace, non-violence, and respect for law enforcement in his tweets. In a third tweet, Trump said "go home" and got banned from twitter.

You are cherry picking what Trump said and leaving out the parts where he incited the mob.

Yes he played the reluctant part of someone who swore an oath to defend our Constitution and told the insurrectionists to “go home” HOURS after his own Vice President was in mortal danger and escorted out. He also told the criminals “we love you, you’re very special”. He didn’t use the “when the looting starts the shooting starts” rhetoric this time and he resisted sending in the National Guard.

During the attack, before Mike Pence was safe, he tweeted: “Mike Pence didn’t have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our Country and our Constitution, giving States a chance to certify a corrected set of facts, not the fraudulent or inaccurate ones which they were asked to previously certify. USA demands the truth!” ... then rioters began shouting “Where’s Mike Pence?” And “Hang Mike Pence!”

In fact it might have been Mike Pence’s Secret Service who shot and killed Ashli Babbit while clearing a path for him as the Capitol was mobbed.

If this was a test Trump gets 50% credit for encouraging peaceful protest and 50% wrong for incitement. Why are you giving him credit for the 50% he got right? That’s still an “F”. He failed his oath and you trying to minimize it is appalling, and sad.

 

[fantome profane]

At "1:00 p.m.: Rioters storm the outer Capitol Police barricade west of the Capitol building." Trump's rally was ongoing at that time.

I looked through your link and could not find this. Where are you getting this from?

 

[ecco]

First of all, Trump didn't call for violence or for breaking into the capital building.

Did you hear or read the entire speech or did you get bits and pieces from OAN?

Here Trump is once again lying about the election being stolen to inflame his followers... Source...Donald Trump Speech "Save America" Rally Transcript January 6 - Rev

All of us here today do not want to see our election victory stolen by emboldened radical left Democrats, which is what they’re doing and stolen by the fake news media. That’s what they’ve done and what they’re doing. We will never give up. We will never concede, it doesn’t happen. You don’t concede when there’s theft involved.
​

Note also, he, as always, denigrated the press. That's something that wannabe dictators do - denigrate or eliminate the opposition press.

We will not take it anymore and that’s what this is all about. To use a favorite term that all of you people really came up with, we will stop the steal.
We will not let them silence your voices. We’re not going to let it happen. Not going to let it happen.
I hope so because if Mike Pence does the right thing, we win the election.
All Vice-President Pence has to do is send it back to the States to recertify, and we become president
...
I just spoke to Mike. I said, “Mike, that doesn’t take courage. What takes courage is to do nothing. That takes courage,” and then we’re stuck with a president who lost the election by a lot, and we have to live with that for four more years. We’re just not going to let that happen.
​

Then a really big lie...

Now it is up to Congress to confront this egregious assault on our democracy. After this, we’re going to walk down and I’ll be there with you.
​

He didn't walk to congress with them. After the speech, he just went home. Weak and spineless. Castro led the march on Havana, Trump went home to watch others fight for him.

...you’ll never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength, and you have to be strong.​

Moreover, Trump twice called for peace, non-violence, and respect for law enforcement in his tweets. In a third tweet, Trump said "go home" and got banned from twitter.

Source?

Trump said "go home" long after the riots started".

He got banned from Twitter because, as even spineless sheeple Lindsey Graham said, "enough is enough". Five years of lying and inflaming and inciting.

Parler's server companies have also shut him down - and all of his followers.


Just to add, I skim-read all of Trump's speech. There was about fifty minutes of him just rambling somewhat incoherently and repeating all the false claims about the election fraud. Claims that have been repeatedly found to be baseless.

 

[SkepticThinker]

1) I concur that what happened in the Capitol was wrong... and I cry foul
2) Yes... there were Republicans that were involved... and I cry foul
3) I usually make the point on the other side... because usually they cry foul on one side and are blind to the other
4) I certainly know that those who did that "particular" forced entry may not really be Trump supporters (but maybe some were). What I do know is that one of them was Pelosi's son-in-law (not a Trump supporter that I know of) and the other was a craziac - the one with the horns! (new word). Atifa WAS there and they banked off of peaceful protestors.
5) The VAST majority of the Republicans were peacefully protesting... those who flooded congress was a minority just as thousand of BLM protesters were peaceful but those who attacked the Federal building were the fringe elements and probably some antifa that banked off peaceful protesters.

All I am saying... is let us just make sure we have equal judgment on whosoever's side it happens to fall on. I am not condoning or supporting this violation of civil law.

The guy with the horns is a well-known Trump/Qanon supporter known as the "Qanon Shaman."

Why would Nancy Pelosi's son-in-law potentially put his mother-in-law's life in danger by storming and overtaking the Capitol with an enraged mob? Sounds like you didn't think that one through.
I just have to ask ... where on earth do you get your information from??


There was no antifa there.

FBI: No Evidence Antifa Involved In Capitol Chaos

 

[metis]

There was no antifa there.

FBI: No Evidence Antifa Involved In Capitol Chaos

But if one only gets their "news" from the likes of Fox, Newsmax, Breitbart, etc. what else are they to believe?