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Was the Buddha a vegetarian?

MountainPine

Deuteronomy 30:16
According to Mahayana Buddhists, the Buddha was a vegetarian. The Mahaparinirvana Sutra teaches that he taught against eating meat:

Then Maha-Kasyapaika-gotra asked, “If it is very important to uphold the impropriety of meat-eating, would it not then be wrong to give meat to those who do not want meat?” [The question here is whether it is wrong to give meat to monks who do not want it, which by the Buddha’s reckoning should be every Buddhist monk, but clearly the implication extends to forcing one’s own food choices onto others, particularly their own children, who are vegans by nature—whence the practice of carnism ultimately originates.] [The Buddha replied:] “Excellent, noble son, excellent! You have understood my intention. One who protects the authentic Dharma should not do that. Noble son, henceforth I do not permit my disciples to eat meat. If I have said that [one should view] the country’s alms-food as the flesh of one’s son, how could I permit the eating of meat? I teach that the eating of meat cuts off maha-maitri.”

“Blessed One, why did you permit the eating of meat that was blameless in three respects?”

“Because I stipulated these three types of blameless as a provisional basis of training; I now discard them.”

“Blessed One, what was your intention in talking of the ninefold great benefit and the abandoning of the ten types of meat?”

“Because those pronouncements were stipulated to restrict the eating of meat; they are also withdrawn.”

“Blessed One, what was your intention in stating that meat and fish are wholesome foodstuffs?”

“I did not say that meat and fish are wholesome foodstuffs, but I have said that sugar-cane, winter-rice, ordinary rice, wheat, barley, green lentils, black lentils, molasses, sugar, honey, ghee, milk and sesame oil are wholesome foodstuffs. If I have taught that even the various garments for covering the body should be dyed an unattractive color, then how much more so attachment to the taste of meat foods!”

“In that case, does it not follow that the five milk products, sesame, sesame oil, sugar-cane sap, conch-shell, silk and so forth also violate the precepts?”

“Don’t cleave to the views of the Nirgranthas! I have imposed the bases of training upon you with a different intention: I stipulate that you should not even eat meat blameless in the three respects. Even those meats other than the ten [previously forbidden] kinds should be abandoned. The meat of corpses should also be abandoned. All creatures sense the odor and are frightened by meat-eaters, no matter if they are moving around or resting. If a person eats asafoetida or garlic, everybody else feels uncomfortable and alienated—whether in a crowd of many people or in the midst of many creatures, they all know that that person has eaten them. Similarly, all creatures can recognize a person who eats meat and, when they catch the odor, they are frightened by the terror of death. Wherever that person roams, the beings in the waters, on dry land or in the sky are frightened. Thinking that they will be killed by that person, they even swoon or die. For these reasons, Bodhisattva-mahasattvas do not eat meat. Even though they may appear to eat meat on account of those to be converted, since they do not actually eat ordinary food, then how much less so meat! Noble son, when many hundreds of years have elapsed after I have gone, there will be no stream-enterers, once-returners, non-returners or arhats. In the age of the Dharma’s decline, there will be monks who preserve the vinaya and abhidharma and who have a multitude of rituals, but who also look after their physical well-being, who highly esteem various kinds of meat, whose humors are disturbed, who are troubled by hunger and thirst, whose clothing looks a fright, who have robes with splashes of colour like a cowherd or a fowler, who behave like cats, who assert that they are arhats, who are pained by many hurts, whose bodies will be soiled with their own feces and urine, who dress themselves well as though they were munis, who dress themselves as shramana, though they are not, and who hold spurious writings to be the authentic Dharma. These people destroy what I have devised—the vinaya, rites, comportment and the authentic utterances that free and liberate one from attachment to what is improper, selecting and reciting passages from each of the sutras according to their inclinations. Thus there will appear [so-called] shramana, sons of Shakyamuni [so-called Buddhists], who will claim that, ‘According to our vinaya, the Blessed One has said that alms of meat-stuffs are acceptable’ and who will concoct their own [scriptures] and contradict each other.

“Moreover, noble son, there will also be those who accept raw cereals, meat and fish, do their own cooking and [stockpile] pots of sesame oil; who frequent leather-makers, parasol-makers and royalty ... The person I call a monk is one who abandons those things.”

“Blessed One, what should be done by monks, nuns, upasakas and upasikas, who depend upon what is offered to them, to purify alms-food that contains meat in such places where the food has not been verified?”

“Noble son, I have taught that it does not contradict the vinaya in any way if they wash it [the vegetarian food, after the meat has been picked out or it has been verified that it had none] with water and then eat it. If it appears that the food in such places contains a lot of prepared meat, it should be rejected. There is no fault if one vessel touches another but the food is not actually mixed together. I say that even meat, fish, game, dried hooves and scraps of meat left over by others constitute an infraction. Previously, I taught this in cases arising from the needs of the situation. Now, on this occasion, I teach the harm arising from meat-eating. Being the time when I shall pass into Parinirvana, this is a comprehensive declaration.” Mahaparinirvana Sutra

So I don't see why vegetarianism is not a common practice among Buddhists as it is in Jainism.
 

buddhist

Well-Known Member
I believe the Buddha ate pretty much whatever was offered to him, meat or vegetables.

In the Book of Discipline for the Sangha, it is written that the Buddha said: "Monks, I allow you fish and meat that are quite pure in three respects: if they are not seen, heard or suspected to have been killed on purpose for a monk. But, you should not knowingly make use of meat killed on purpose for you." - Vinaya 4.325

Sidenote: I am not a Mahayanist.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
In the Book of Discipline for the Sangha, it is written that the Buddha said: "Monks, I allow you fish and meat that are quite pure in three respects: if they are not seen, heard or suspected to have been killed on purpose for a monk. But, you should not knowingly make use of meat killed on purpose for you." - Vinaya 4.325
How does that relate to today? It would seem to me to imply Buddhists should be vegetarians as they know the meat they buy was purposely killed for the purchasers.
 

buddhist

Well-Known Member
How does that relate to today? It would seem to me to imply Buddhists should be vegetarians as they know the meat they buy was purposely killed for the purchasers.
IMO the butcher who kills the animal assumes the negative kamma associated with that death. After that, it is no longer an animal but simply a carcass and meat, and something to eat. However, if the person who kills the animal specifically did it for me (not generally, e.g. specifically for me and not for sale to the public), then he would be functioning as my proxy, and so IMO the negative kamma would pass on to me in that case and should not be done.
 

buddhist

Well-Known Member
Would a buddhist purchasing meat not create incentive for the butcher? Would it not be wiser to reduce the demand and lower the negative karma on the Butcher's side of things?
Nope. I'm not responsible for how others' interpret their own reality, or their choices. I'm only responsible for my own. The butcher can stop butchering any time he likes.

To take another scenario, Should I wear a burka to not create incentive for women (or some men, too) to lust after me?
 

MountainPine

Deuteronomy 30:16
But, isn't Buddhism all about non-violence and compassion? How is eating meat not violent? Even "humane" slaughters are not exactly humane considering that the animal knows it's going to die and is afraid. Anyway, the sutra I quoted from does give evidence that Siddhartha Gautama was a vegetarian. Why wouldn't he have been? It would have made him a hypocrite otherwise considering all that he taught on the importance of compassion.
 

buddhist

Well-Known Member
But, isn't Buddhism all about non-violence and compassion? How is eating meat not violent? Even "humane" slaughters are not exactly humane considering that the animal knows it's going to die and is afraid. Anyway, the sutra I quoted from does give evidence that Siddhartha Gautama was a vegetarian. Why would he have been? It would have made him a hypocrite otherwise considering all that he taught on the importance of compassion.
Eating meat is not violent. Eating a live animal is violent.

In regards to the Mahaparinirvana Sutra you quoted, you'll have to wait for Mahayanists to give input on that ...

In the Maha-parinibbanna Sutta (DN 16), I don't see the same dialogue.
 

buddhist

Well-Known Member
Well I wasn't actually saying you were responsible. I was questioning the moral position.
You are the one (of many) creating the reason for the butchers to kill the animals.

Not wearing a burka is a passive action, whereas one needs to go out of their way to eat meat. That's the first issue I see with the comparison.
I see the verse above as the sort of nitpicky stuff that christian fundamentalists do.

If I ran a business where I killed people and sold the human meat, would you also consider there to be no negative karma from purchasing human meat?
What if some derranged jerk were to record Child pornography, would the person purchasing it also get no negative karma from doing so? (Karma transactions relating to lust and sexual association aside.)
I disagree that the burka is "passive". If I chose to go out in shorts and a tee, many might see that as an "active" decision.

IMO intent - not the rule of law - is the key to interpreting the kammic results of any action, and that applies to the scenarios you gave as well.
 

buddhist

Well-Known Member
Yes, and one who eats meat in the modern industrialized society intends to contribute to it.

If one acknowledges that buddhism is about nonviolence, then under zero circumstance should a buddhist give someone who does unnecessary violence their approval and money for their services.
I see deviation from this as people using their faith to justify their existing behaviors, not determine them.
The limits of my intention & kamma stops at my intention. There is no violence done in the specific act of eating meat.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
So I don't see why vegetarianism is not a common practice among Buddhists as it is in Jainism.
It varies, I wouldn't exactly call vegetarianism uncommon among Buddhists but it varies from culture as well. There certainly are arguments for pro vegetarianism.

"There are no accurate statistics, but I would guess—and it is only a guess—that worldwide about half of all Buddhists are vegetarian".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism_and_religion
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
IMO the butcher who kills the animal assumes the negative kamma associated with that death. After that, it is no longer an animal but simply a carcass and meat, and something to eat. However, if the person who kills the animal specifically did it for me (not generally, e.g. specifically for me and not for sale to the public), then he would be functioning as my proxy, and so IMO the negative kamma would pass on to me in that case and should not be done.
That seems like weird (wrong) logic to me. The butcher is doing it for us (the public). We are the ones creating the demand for him to do it.
 

buddhist

Well-Known Member
You are paying him to do it. Plus, I think the logic was from the Buddha's day when there was no refrigeration and animals were killed with their actual end user in mind. You can't use the same logic today.
Whether or not I pay him is irrelevant to the fact that he can decide to not do it. He can be given all the money in the world, and still choose to not do it.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Whether or not I pay him is irrelevant to the fact that he can decide to not do it. He can be given all the money in the world, and still choose to not do it.
Is there any issue then with you encouraging him to do it by buying more of his product? I would say 'Yes'.
 

buddhist

Well-Known Member
Is there any issue then with you encouraging him to do it by buying more of his product? I would say 'Yes'.
I say no. At most, I am responsible for encouraging him, and its associated kamma. I am not responsible for the butchering, or its kamma.
 
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