Then why even bother listening to them on the campaign trail? That can't make any sense.
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Was Ted Cruz Right?
- Thread starter Mr Spinkles
- Start date
The tragedy is that in a Trump Presidency, the ethical/moral level of Americans is actually declining -- because he is swiftly becoming the new normal. You will all very much regret it in the not-too-distant future, I think.
Mr Spinkles
Mr
Agreed, a very good question - one emblematic of the shift we have seen in the Republican Party as a whole (now the Trump Party).
epronovost
Well-Known Member
Statistically speaking. The truthfulness of politician is on average of about 75% of their statement being true or mostly true with the rest being a mixed bag of shaddy to downright insultingly false. This makes them about as honest as a random person pulled off the street in similar circumstances. We could say that pretty much all humans are habitual liars, but politicians aren't fundamentally more dishonest than other people of similar age and gender.
Yes, age is a factor in truthfulness and the types of lies being told. Adults tend to tell more sophisticated lies where they ommit information, manipulate data, exagerate or downplay things and introduce bias while children and teens tell more obvious falsehood and fabulate more often. Men tend to cheat and self-promote through lies or deception more often than women who are, in turn, more likely to make altruistic lies (that's when you lie to help or plese someone else like telling someone their baby or pet is cute for example). Ironically both men and women are more likely to lie to women, but this is especially true for men. What makes politicians unique about lying is the importance of the lies they make and the position of trust and power they occupy. We judge them more harshly than laymen for that and with good reason.
On the subject of Trump. He definitely stands out as one of the most dishonest politician in the US. His record of lies is by the largest of any politicians of his stature. In fact he lies almost three times as much as other politicians making him a liar amongst other liars by all metrics used. Though, as Nowhere Man has mentionned above, Ted Cruz is also bellow the average (albeit not to the level of Trump) of politicians in terms of honesty.
Heyo
Veteran Member
It's not a bug, it's a feature.
Extreme loyalty to the party and the leader demonstrates strength to the low information voter and is seen as a virtue by those who are authoritarian. Cruz is a good soldier who follows orders. We see this mentality not only in the military but also in wolf packs, in religious cults and, of course, in the Republican Party and their voters. Policies don't matter, what matters is the command of the leader. And if the leader switches direction, a good republican will defend the new course as vehemently as he defended yesterdays course, even if it was the opposite direction.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Oh, of course the socialist Democrats are completely immune to that.
Mr Spinkles
Mr
Trump said Cruz’ father was involved in the JFK assassination. Cruz says he wasn’t. You really don’t know who to believe?
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
epronovost
Well-Known Member
Statistically speaking, Left leaning people in the western world are less likely to score high in authoritarian personnality traits and belief like obediance to leadership and tribalism. Of course being less likely to be affected doesn't mean unaffected, but it's equally false to call both side equal. It's not because someone displays the same behavior than you from time to time that this person is comparably as virtuous or vile as you.
Mr Spinkles
Mr
You dodged the question with what about-ism. Was Cruz’ description accurate or not?
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Hmm, no answers about Cruz. I hope the OP does not mind if I change it a little bit. How about Lindsey Graham?
The former presidential candidate told CNN’s Wolf Blitzer that the New York billionaire’s rhetoric toward immigrants has exacerbated the problem the GOP had with Hispanics in 2012.
“He took our problems in 2012 with Hispanics and made them far worse by espousing forced deportation,” Graham said. “Looking back, we should have basically kicked him out of the party.”
“The more you know about Donald Trump, the less likely you are to vote for him. The more you know about his business enterprises, the less successful he looks. The more you know about his political giving, the less Republican he looks,” Graham said. “We should have done this months ago.”
Graham: We should have kicked Trump out of the party
The former presidential candidate told CNN’s Wolf Blitzer that the New York billionaire’s rhetoric toward immigrants has exacerbated the problem the GOP had with Hispanics in 2012.
“He took our problems in 2012 with Hispanics and made them far worse by espousing forced deportation,” Graham said. “Looking back, we should have basically kicked him out of the party.”
“The more you know about Donald Trump, the less likely you are to vote for him. The more you know about his business enterprises, the less successful he looks. The more you know about his political giving, the less Republican he looks,” Graham said. “We should have done this months ago.”
Graham: We should have kicked Trump out of the party
Mr Spinkles
Mr
Thanks, this was informative.
Don’t you also think the nature of Trump’s lying is rather striking? He often lies about thing unnecessarily, where the truth would do just fine, but he can’t resist a lie if it will make him look better. He also often lies unconvincingly, about things where there is demonstrable evidence against it. And he contradicts himself.
All of this adds up to a toddler-like, unhinged personality that I think is unfit to lead the world’s most powerful country and military.
It’s not just his lying, but how the way he lies is symptomatic of a lack of deliberation and accountability to others. Sure all human beings lie ... but not every Commander in Chief is an erratic four year old.
It’s like having a drunk piloting our plane, and all his nonchalant defenders can say is “everyone drinks”.
Heyo
Veteran Member
If they weren't, why would they lose elections?
Mr Spinkles
Mr
Thanks. Great and fair question. And along the same lines ... was Mitt Romney right about Trump? These were extremely damning words from the prior Republican nominee.
Mr Spinkles
Mr
I guess this is all leading to a more general question ... how did the Trump Party get taken over? What does the transition tell us?
To take the second question first, I think one thing this tells us is that the party that defends Trump is not symmetric with the party that criticizes him. I.e., you don’t just have one party that supports him, and one party against him, and who can say in this crazy politicized world which is genuine or accurate. Instead, you have one party that has consistently opposed him, and another party that largely opposed him for the same reasons, initially - until he took power and they capitulated, trading their integrity for survival.
Coming back to the first question, I think a big component is 30-40% of voters have allowed and embraced Trump’s use of his own, secret weapon: utter, shameless demagoguery. It’s like a boxing tournament where one of the fighters is allowed to fight bare-knuckled. He is permitted to get away with things others can’t. As long as 30-40% of American voters choose to cheer and relish such behavior, and as long as none of his opponents are willing to stoop equally low (and I hope they don’t), he will continue to enjoy the advantage of being able to hurt his political opponents (Including within the party) in a way that they can’t hurt him back.
It really comes down to a decision those voters have chosen, in my view. It is akin to the decision a group of onlookers make when they choose to laugh and encourage a schoolyard bully, and imagine themselves onsides with a winner and a strong leader; rather than intervening to do what is right.
To take the second question first, I think one thing this tells us is that the party that defends Trump is not symmetric with the party that criticizes him. I.e., you don’t just have one party that supports him, and one party against him, and who can say in this crazy politicized world which is genuine or accurate. Instead, you have one party that has consistently opposed him, and another party that largely opposed him for the same reasons, initially - until he took power and they capitulated, trading their integrity for survival.
Coming back to the first question, I think a big component is 30-40% of voters have allowed and embraced Trump’s use of his own, secret weapon: utter, shameless demagoguery. It’s like a boxing tournament where one of the fighters is allowed to fight bare-knuckled. He is permitted to get away with things others can’t. As long as 30-40% of American voters choose to cheer and relish such behavior, and as long as none of his opponents are willing to stoop equally low (and I hope they don’t), he will continue to enjoy the advantage of being able to hurt his political opponents (Including within the party) in a way that they can’t hurt him back.
It really comes down to a decision those voters have chosen, in my view. It is akin to the decision a group of onlookers make when they choose to laugh and encourage a schoolyard bully, and imagine themselves onsides with a winner and a strong leader; rather than intervening to do what is right.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Who knows? Desperation? Fear? For example the anti-choice crowd could see their support melting away. Trump promised to use improper standards in finding his Supreme Court judges and those people will forgive anything but abortion. The rich think that his lowering of taxes will add to their wealth while they ignore the warning signs that Trump might bring us back into a recession. And then there are those that just hate the government because doing the right thing gets in their way. Truckers for Trump is an excellent example, and sadly Trump is more likely to end their jobs than Democrats. Not because automated trucks are safer, but because they are cheaper. He has always been on the side of big business. Not small business.
I sense determination to tell Trump voters why we voted for
him, but no desire to actually understand anyone's reasons.
This smacks of tribalism.
At least we don't tag Hillary voters with malevolent motives.
Dang....now you got me feeling all superior. I'll be even more
insufferable. (You've no one to blame but yourself.)
leov
Well-Known Member
They do not hire a POTUS who would not lie.
There is a narrative on the left (and some corners of the right) that Donald Trump is some aberration to conservatism, some wolf in sheep's clothing who dropped down from the sky out of nowhere and became popular with GOP voters for no discernible or comprehensible reason.
The reality is, Trump is exactly what the Right in the this country has been clamoring for in a President for years: an authoritarian "tough guy," someone who advocates extreme anti-immigration policies, an ultra-wealthy CEO who would "run government more like a business," who will pass tax cuts (mostly for the rich), deregulate the economy, and who says "un-PC" (read: misogynistic, racist, xenophobic) things proudly and with no shame. He's not a wolf in conservative's clothing. He's the Frankenstein monster that the Right has been trying to create for years. Now that he's finally here, some of the smarter right-wing leaders realize they've created a monster and tried to undo the damage by initially opposing him. Once they realized how popular he was, they had to change their tune and get behind him, despite his many absurd and embarrassing ideas and pathological penchant for dishonesty.
The reality is, Trump is exactly what the Right in the this country has been clamoring for in a President for years: an authoritarian "tough guy," someone who advocates extreme anti-immigration policies, an ultra-wealthy CEO who would "run government more like a business," who will pass tax cuts (mostly for the rich), deregulate the economy, and who says "un-PC" (read: misogynistic, racist, xenophobic) things proudly and with no shame. He's not a wolf in conservative's clothing. He's the Frankenstein monster that the Right has been trying to create for years. Now that he's finally here, some of the smarter right-wing leaders realize they've created a monster and tried to undo the damage by initially opposing him. Once they realized how popular he was, they had to change their tune and get behind him, despite his many absurd and embarrassing ideas and pathological penchant for dishonesty.