1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Was Peter the First Pope?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by t3gah, Dec 24, 2004.

?

Was Peter the First Pope?

Poll closed Jan 14, 2005.
  1. Yes

    6 vote(s)
    28.6%
  2. No

    7 vote(s)
    33.3%
  3. I'm not sure

    4 vote(s)
    19.0%
  4. Who cares?!

    4 vote(s)
    19.0%
  5. Other (I'll post my response)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2005
    Messages:
    19,713
    Ratings:
    +1,317
    Religion:
    Catholic
    Metaphors? Why cause it doesn't mesh with your interpretation? Sigh...I almost want to say how come you guys can't use your God given brain to see how silly that is but I will be more charitable and explain further.

    Apologists Gary Hoge further explains:

    ~Victor

    PS-In that same verse where it supposedly condemns calling someone father in the sense you guys understand it also condemns calling someone teacher. I suppose you guys have never called someone teacher either, eh? I wonder why we don't hear the Protestant camps objecting to this much? Could it be cause they seem to have an agenda to go after the Catholic Church? :sarcastic
     
  2. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2004
    Messages:
    16,472
    Ratings:
    +3,195
    Religion:
    Christian Taoist
    I have no such agenda. Of course I don't refer to anyone as "Father" or as a spiritual "Teacher" either. But then, I am not a protestant either. :D
     
  3. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2005
    Messages:
    19,713
    Ratings:
    +1,317
    Religion:
    Catholic
    Good to hear. Although it is alive out there. ;)

    ~Victor
     
  4. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2004
    Messages:
    1,464
    Ratings:
    +96
    Bueno, irrespective of that, there's no basis for the Catholic assertion that Peter was the Pope, or that anyone else in the Catholic line of authority was in any way authorized to lead the church.
     
  5. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,303
    Ratings:
    +952
    That's kinda silly.... we have scripture and history.... there is no "proof" that our interpretation is the "correct" one, but there is surely a basis for it. :confused:
     
  6. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2004
    Messages:
    1,464
    Ratings:
    +96
    Scripture? Like what?

    History is a sham. You have tradition up until everyone else who wrote history books was killed.
     
  7. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,303
    Ratings:
    +952
    Who could argue with such a well thought out and balanced reply? I concede.


    :rolleyes:
     
  8. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2004
    Messages:
    1,464
    Ratings:
    +96
    I was hoping you would retort. I would like to hear these scriptures.
     
  9. Uncertaindrummer

    Uncertaindrummer Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2005
    Messages:
    308
    Ratings:
    +31
    Yeah, its not like the Bible says the Church was founded on Peter, it isn't like the early Father's were unanimous in their support of the primacy of Rome, etc. etc.

    You want direct quotations? There are plenty.
     
  10. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2004
    Messages:
    16,472
    Ratings:
    +3,195
    Religion:
    Christian Taoist
    Dan,

    short bombastic comments do little to engender a debate or a discussion. In fact, it can be misconstrued as trolling. If you want "retorts" you have to give more than you have been. IE, tell us why you think Scott is wrong about the Papacy.

    UD,

    there is only one passage of scripture that comes CLOSE to supporting Peter as the "Rock" of the church. No where is the office of the papacy described or even hinted at. The early church was not headed by only one man... it was governed by concensus as the Spirit moved them.
     
  11. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2004
    Messages:
    1,464
    Ratings:
    +96
    I asked a question. I asked which scriptures were supportive of Peter as the Pope. My other statement was just how I felt about the situation. I didn't expect a reply about history, but I wanted to hear some scriptures.
     
  12. Uncertaindrummer

    Uncertaindrummer Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2005
    Messages:
    308
    Ratings:
    +31
    "You are Peter and upon this Rock I wil build My Church"

    There is one, just in the ten seconds I have.
     
  13. Uncertaindrummer

    Uncertaindrummer Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2005
    Messages:
    308
    Ratings:
    +31
    If it was governed by consensus wouldn't we see that in history? And yet we don't.
     
  14. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2004
    Messages:
    16,472
    Ratings:
    +3,195
    Religion:
    Christian Taoist
    Sure we do... what were the councils all about?

    How about Paul before the Jerusalem church?

    In fact the entire Book of Acts sees this as the structure of the church.
     
  15. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,303
    Ratings:
    +952
    Perfect.:)
    In your opinon.... my point has been that I'm not looking for a verse that says "Peter is the Pope... here's the job description..... now go get a cool house in Rome"... what I'm trying to do is explain the reasons why we believe in the Primacy of Peter, not convince you or anyone that we have a "proof text" that shows without question that we are "right". We've got to look at a few things:

    Was there ever such a thing as primacy at all?
    When you take a look at Scripture, it's impossible to deny the evidence of the preeminence of Peter among the Apostles... the fact that he is listed first... the sheer frequency of references to Peter.... etc etc...
    But what does the preeminence of Peter in the NT actually mean... if anything?
    Well, we say that it does.... some (you and Dan for instance) say it does not....

    .... but statements like:
    or
    ...are quite incorrect and (obviously) biased..... what we all have done is made a decision based upon evidence in the NT and history.... just because you come to make a DIFFERENT conclusion by no means implies that either of you are any more correct that we are....

    Peace in Christ,
    Scott
     
  16. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2004
    Messages:
    16,472
    Ratings:
    +3,195
    Religion:
    Christian Taoist
    Dear Scott,

    I have no issues with y'all having a Pope... the origins of his office are not Scriptural, but traditional. You have pointed out many a time that you need more than scriptures to figure Catholicism out.

    I look at Paul rebuking Peter to his face and see that there was no air of "infallability" which is a critical mark of the Pope.
     
  17. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2005
    Messages:
    19,713
    Ratings:
    +1,317
    Religion:
    Catholic
    ND,
    Peter was rebuked for hypocritical practices (Galatians 2:11-14). This has no bearing on his gift of infallibility. How much do you understand about how infallibility works ND? Besides, catholics have a long history of laymen rebuking decadent popes, while remaining faithful to the Church. I'm sure you have heard that the Pope is not sinless.

    ~Victor
     
  18. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2004
    Messages:
    1,464
    Ratings:
    +96
    If you understand Greek at all you'll see why that cannot mean what you think it means.
     
  19. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2005
    Messages:
    19,713
    Ratings:
    +1,317
    Religion:
    Catholic
    I was tempted to type a long explanation for you Dan but I will give you a link to explain why Catholics interpret it as they do. Please read it and let me get your thoughts.

    http://catholicoutlook.com/rock.php

    ~Victor
     
  20. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,303
    Ratings:
    +952
    Again... this is but your personal opinon.... I believe (and the Church as well, obviously) that the Petrine ministry has its origin in the NT.

    ... just because you have come to a different conclusion does not mean that you are any more correct than I.
    Again... I see this as a prime example of what the Petrine ministry is all about.... just because you have come to a different conclusion does not mean that you are any more correct than I.

    I can't make it any more clear than that.... :confused:
     
Loading...