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Was Peter the First Pope?

Was Peter the First Pope?

  • Yes

    Votes: 6 28.6%
  • No

    Votes: 7 33.3%
  • I'm not sure

    Votes: 4 19.0%
  • Who cares?!

    Votes: 4 19.0%
  • Other (I'll post my response)

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    21
  • Poll closed .

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
We could debate the logic behind the Aramaic/Greek translations and transliterations, and we ALL would be guessing at best, or forcing the Bible into our own private interpretation at the very worse.

We could debate Peter's celibacy and to what end?

After all is said and done, Simon/Peter/Cephus never assumed the title of "Pope" and was never seen as infallible. If he were, then Paul would not have had reason to rebuke him.

Maybe our Catholic friends can tell us when the title "pope" came to be!
 

t3gah

Well-Known Member
SOGFPP said:
I am not sure what you're getting at..... but you seem to be forgetting that the early church members and leaders spoke Greek.... and knew exactly what Christ meant.... and recognized Peter as first among equals.... leader of the Christian Church.... a simple study of history will show you that... You should read some.;)

Scott

(Matthew 23:8-10) 8 But YOU, do not YOU be called Rabbi, for one is YOUR teacher, whereas all YOU are brothers. 9 Moreover, do not call anyone YOUR father on earth, for one is YOUR Father, the heavenly One. 10 Neither be called ‘leaders,’ for YOUR Leader is one, the Christ.
 

t3gah

Well-Known Member
Deut. 32.8 said:
It looks to me like some anti-Catholic trash that you irresponsibly tossed out to get a response. What do you think?
HelpMe messaged that link to me the moment this thread was posted. Maybe you should ask HelpMe.
 

t3gah

Well-Known Member
SOGFPP said:
This has to be the most ridiculous example of theology I have ever seen.

You make an argument based on one language to explain your position..... then when it backfires..... you want everyone to toss out any linguistic evidence because it no longer is relevant.:areyoucra

Jesus spoke every language..... in fact, I think the Sermon on the Mount was given in English...... a few parables in German....... on the Cross I think he was speaking Japanese.:biglaugh:

You continue to help with conversion to the Catholic church...... we thank you.

Scott
You're the one that posted a comment that Jesus didn't speak Greek, Scott. Scroll back and read what you posted.
 

t3gah

Well-Known Member
NetDoc said:
We could debate the logic behind the Aramaic/Greek translations and transliterations, and we ALL would be guessing at best, or forcing the Bible into our own private interpretation at the very worse.

We could debate Peter's celibacy and to what end?

After all is said and done, Simon/Peter/Cephus never assumed the title of "Pope" and was never seen as infallible. If he were, then Paul would not have had reason to rebuke him.

Maybe our Catholic friends can tell us when the title "pope" came to be!
I want to know who's giving them authority to change their names when only Jesus and God did that.
 

t3gah

Well-Known Member
Peter never referred to himself as anything other than one of Jesus' apostles. Nowhere in the bible is Peter addressed as Pope, Supreme Pontiff or Holy Father.

Acts 10:22 They said, “Cornelius, a centurion, a righteous man and one who fears God, and well spoken of by all the nation of the Jews, was directed by a holy angel to invite you to his house, and to listen to what you say.” 10:23 So he called them in and lodged them. On the next day Peter arose and went out with them, and some of the brothers from Joppa accompanied him. 10:24 On the next day they entered into Caesarea. Cornelius was waiting for them, having called together his relatives and his near friends. 10:25 When it happened that Peter entered, Cornelius met him, fell down at his feet, and worshiped him. 10:26 But Peter raised him up, saying, “Stand up! I myself am also a man.” (World English Bible)

 

No*s

Captain Obvious
ND, Peter's celibacy isn't a Roman Catholic claim. Celibacy in the Roman priesthood, and the bishopric by extension, came much later (and is a point of dispute, actually, between our two Churches, but one of the more minor ones).

As for the "how" it came about...I've explained how the bishopric is actually the original office above. I've also pointed out that Rome had primacy from the very beginning. This primacy, though, in the early days couldn't be absolute, because, well, conditions forbade it. Rome was, after all, quite hostile to Christianity.

Now on the rest of this, though, I'm going to remain as neutral as I can. Please note that I have a strong bias, and it is a complex issue.

I'm going to skip a few years, well centuries. When the Emperor Constantine made Christianity equal in standing to paganism (not yet the official religion...that comes later), he also moved the capitol of the Empire to New Rome. When he did, he left Old Rome in the hands of the bishop of Rome. Hence, the Roman Bishop gained a degree (far from absolute) of power over the city of Rome, and this was unique in this way among all other bishops.

Further, in Constantine's reign, we have the Council of Nicea. This, like the Council of Jerusalem, had enough bishops to come very close to including the whole of the Christian world (a very decentralized world still), including bishops from outside the Empire (sorry to those who think Constantine corrupted the Church, but his reach didn't extend that far, and many of these same bishops were tortured for their faith. I doubt they ducked and cowed just because another Emperor came to the throne). The relavent portion of Nicea here is that it placed limitations on the bishops that they may not interfere in other jurisdictions (I Clement is just such a case, where the Roman Church wrote the Corinthian Church over their problems). I'm not sure if this is the council that placed the Roman Bishop in a place of special arbitration, but I know it is in effect later and will come sharply into play.

Well, next I skip to the fifth century and the Council of Ephesus. A man named Nestorius began teaching that Mary wasn't the Theotokos (this is translated literally both as "Bearer of God" and "Mother of God"). Naturally, this caused quite a stir, and there was even fighting in the streets. Nestorius raised a band of ruffians, and one subsequently alligned itself with St. Cyril. Cyril taught that Jesus had one nature, which was both divine and human. He qualified this, however, with phrases like "without change" or "without alteration," to imply that neither nature lost anything. Cyril, consequently, won out in the Council of Ephesus. As an aside, this is one of the most tragic moments in Church history, for it is in this period we see the most bitter bickering, the slaughter of Hypatia, and the first great schism of Christian history at the Council of Chalcedon, and they comprise the "Oriental Orthodox" today.

Well, like all things, people over-corrected on the mystery of Christ. The next teacher taught what St. Cyril taught...except he omitted the qualifying phrases of Cyril, and thus made Jesus a hybrid. Again, an Ecumenical Council had to be called. Here, they settle the issue, but there is an odd way in which they go about it. Pope Leo sent his dotrinal statement, called "The Tome of Leo" as a definition of his beliefs. The Council poured over it and found it acceptable, they proclaimed "Peter has spoken!" and settled the issue. The Orientals then split off of the rest of the Church and comprise several groups, such as the Indian, the Ethiopian, the Coptic, the Assyrian, the Syriac, etc. Orthodox Churches. At most, though, there are two churches here. Don't let the ethnicities fool you. It's a means of orginization without centralization. The Coptic Church still maintains its "Pope," while the Orthodox (not Oriental) bishop of Antioch also presides. It gets confusing :).

Not long after this, the Western Empire fell. Rome continued in the East, and Constantinople continued as her capitol (there never was a "Byzantine Empire." That is a racist slur created by French and German historians IMO). As a result, the Roman people in the West were under rule by Germanic Arians (not to be confused with Aryans). The Pope, then, acted as a sort of safeguard, and a means by which the Church, and their culture, might continue. The same thing would happen in the East when the Roman Empire was finally destroyed by the Turks. This placed the Pope in a place of preserving his culture, protecting his people, and protecting doctrine. The Germanic peoples were a real threat, and they could (and would) do many things, so they had reason to fear.

The next major event is the Sixth Ecumenical Council. A new heresy arose...this time saying that Jesus' human will was swallowed up by His divine will, just as a drop is swallowed up in the ocean. Here, though, Pope Honorius was actually condemned a heretic. He recanted, though, very quickly, and submitted to the Council. This is also the last Council I will digress over, of the Seven (and some in Orthodoxy say Nine) Ecumenical Councils. I believe that the Roman Catholic Church has twenty-seven. I may be in error here.

One interesting thing to note, from my vantage-point, is that Rome didn't call the Councils. They were all called by Emperors. Rome, like most other bishops, inevitablly approved them all in the end. Rome's approval was important, though, because with the exception of Honorius, it had remained steadfastly Orthodox. It is also at this point I must tread very carefully. I enter a controversial era between my Church, the Orthodox Catholic Church, and the Roman Catholic Church. I will try to compose my words here with care, and I won't say "who was right" in 1054, though everyone knows my opinion :).

I also need to continue this in the next post. It may well be too long already.
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
OK, we now come to troubled waters. We passed the Sixth Ecumenical Council, so now we come to the ninth century...and Pope Nicholas and Patriarch Photius. I do not have space to visit the Iconoclastic Controversy in the seventh and eight centuries, even though it has bearing. The forum is too limited. Suffice it to say, several Roman Emperors forbade the use of images, and the Church won in the end.

Going back a bit, we revisit the Fourth Century. The Second Ecumenical Council was held, again, in response to Arians, who were now denying the Divinity of the Holy Spirit instead of denying the Divinity of the Son. The Creed from Nicea was altered now to deal with their claims. The relevant clause said: "And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father, who together with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified, who spoke through the prophets." You may find the Niceno-Constantonopolitan Creed at http://www.goarch.org/en/chapel/liturgical_texts/creed.asp. The emphasized portion is the part to pay special attention to. It is a direct cause of the schism of our Churches and has a strong bearing on the rise of the papal authority in the form you are talking about. It was forbidden at the time to add to or take away from this Creed. Note that the biblical canon itself isn't yet fully solidified (and really isn't still in the East, as there is some differences over books in the Apocrypha, but it's never been a big issue for us as far as I know).

In the Sixth Century in Spain, the relevant clause was changed to "who proceeds from the Father and the Son," and the added portion is filioque[/b] in Latin. The full edition as used in the West may be found here: http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/nicene.htm. Originally, this addition was a practice limited to Spain, but it soon spread, and the Germanic Emperors grew to favor it. This has bearing, because this doesn't become a controversy between the Pope and the other four Patriarchs until a Germanic bishop comes to power (Pope Nicholas). I am omitting all designations of "St." here so as to remain as neutral as possible. We are, indeed, in troubled waters now.

The traditional version (agreed on both sides here) is that the Roman Emperor forcibly deposed Patriarch Ignatius, and Photios became the next Patriarch of Constantinople. Naturally, this drew no small amount of controversy. At this time, we have our first Germanic pope, and we have a bishop appointed by the Emperor (there are bigger things here than just religion). The Pope, as was traditional, sent emmissaries to settle this dispute. They, in their turn, settled it in favor of Photius. (If you search for "Photius" on this, you are likely to get Western source material, and if "Photios" Eastern).

This, however, didn't settle things between the two. Nicholas demanded Photius come to Rome, and that he would settle things in person. This, of course, is not how it had been done in the past, and Photius objected, and he objected strongly. Nicholas also made it clear that he wanted the Nicene Creed recited with the Filioque, and the East had never smiled on that clause, and further, both the Eastern Patriarchs and the Pope convened councils each deposing and excoummunicating the other. Thus there was a brief schism, but that was healed...at least for a little while. Also in this time, the Nicholas (and the West with him) claimed that the Roman Bishop has power over the whole world. This, obviously, means that the East is in error and should repent according to the Western perspective. In the Eastern perspective, the claim was also a call to arms and considered too uncanonical. On the Eastern side, the Council that condemned Nicholas' claims and the Filioque is considered Ecumenical by a few, but not by all.

Around 1050, the Normans began forcing the Empire's control out of Italy, and they mandated Latin practices from the Greeks there. This, in its turn, broke what was now a fragile co-existence between East and West again. The East mandated the same thing in Constantinople. The fight got further out of hand, however. In 1053, the Patriarch Michael offered to restore the peace, so Pope Leo IX sent three men to discuss things. This, though, was ill-fated. Both the Patriarch, and the chief legate, named Humbert, were hot-headed men. Humbert was rude, so Michael refused to give him a hearing. Next, Humbert went into the Hagia Sophia, Constantinople's foremost church, and he slapped a Bull of Excommunication upon the alter, listing amongst its offenses the lack of the Filioque. The Patriarch responded in like manner.

This, frankly, was it. The East and West were never again really united. There is some question over whether this is the cut-off date, because Pope Leo IX was dead at the time, Humbert had made it himself, and each only anathematized the other Patriarch. However, even if we say this isn't the cut-off date, 1204 is, after the pillaging of Constantinople (I can't touch on this in this text for fairness' sake...and I don't know how fair I would be, since this is a major ecclesiastical issue). What I will say, is that more good-will is being built between the East and West (I doubt unity ever can).

As a result of this, the East continues with a collegiality of bishops with nothing but a symbolic head (the Patriarch of Constantinople now has the highest honor, but he has no teeth, and is losing more influence by the day with many). In the West, the Pope had jurisdiction over the provinces he always had. Now, papal authority was a reality, because we had two Churches, and his flock were the ones that he had always directed.

Now, I have one more section, which I don't know as well, but I'll still post it. By the end of this, NetDoc's question on the "how" of this wil be answered :). I hope that everyone agrees I am treating this fairly. If not, I apologize. I'm trying.
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
NetDoc said:
So...

when was the office first reffered to as the Papacy?

All early bishops were called "Pope." It means, basically, "daddy." It only became phased out over time, so that now only the Roman bishop and the Coptic bishop of Antioch are called "Pope." "Papacy" is a take-off of "pope." So, you really don't have a date for when it was first used, because it arose from the people, just like "prevyteros" eventually became "prester" for shorthand then "priest."
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
NetDoc said:
Actually,

I didn't ask "how", I only asked "when". :D

But "how" is also good to know!

OK, but "how" is intimately related to "when." If we really want to understand the issue, we must to see how it developed, and only then can we really make up our minds. Just like the Bible, it didn't drop out of the blue.
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
Now, I'm passed where my Church passes off into the sunset as far as the West is concerned :D. I'm much safer. I'm also tireder, so I'm not going to spend near as much time on this one (well, I don't think...I was trying to be brief). Unfortunately, my brain is nearly mud, and I was tired when I started this. It's hard to remember all the dates and names. If I get them wrong, please forgive me and correct it. I'm not as up on this as I am the first thousand (in East or West), and I'm quite tired.

Our next major event occurs in the fourteenth century. We have what I've seen called by a couple of names, and I can't remember the technical name for it. As I said, I'm getting tired, but I think it was referred to as "the Babylonian Captivity" and "the Great Schism," and the latter is obviously taken for me :). In this case, there was a schism between popes. It occurred after Pope Gregory (can't remember which one) moved his residence to France. This, naturally, didn't fair too well with a lot of people, but he remained the legal Pope. When he died, however, things changed.

His successor was appointed in France (as a puppet), but another one was appointed in Italy. You had, then, two seperate popes, and each claiming legitamacy. As a result, each called the other an anti-pope (not "against the pope," but "in the place of the pope." Anti usually means "in place of." The ubiquitous "against" is an Anglicism I don't understand). The Pope was the head of the Roman Church, now, so you effectively had two competing Churches. Also, you had nations and cultures lining up. You could literally divide Europe according to which pope you supported.

The controversy was fixed after about seventy years, but the damage was permanent. We can see it to this day. It cast doubt on the legitamacy of the papacy and its authority, and the affair lived on in the public memory. We now have a doubtful episcopate in the mind of many.

Now, we enter the Reformation, only about two hundred years later. Two hundred years is a long time, but it's not that long in a traditional society. The memory lived on, and people were uncertain...especially princes. Make no mistake, the Reformation wasn't the result of the printing press so much as it was the result of the various princes and kings taking advantage of the situation to set-up local churches that would have less foreign influence. Printing presses were big, smelly, in need of a lot of paper, and so on. You just aren't going to move them in and hide them without a noble's protection, but with his protection, it could be very powerful.

So, we have doubt. We have a device that can mass-produce books, and custom translations (and often questionable), which were distinct from the native language versions allowed by the Church. Make no mistake, either, the Roman Catholic Church never forbade the use of the Bible. That's a rhetorical myth.

As a result, Luther, Zwingli, and others began making their breaks. Most of them were supported by the local princes, but some survived without their support, though in small numbers (e.g. the Anabaptists). Others took over cities (e.g. Calvin and Geneva or the Anabaptists in Munster). England was shortly lost. We have a continent which had had two Churches (three during those years of dispute), and now they faced dozens, then hundreds, then thousands, and each one with its own particular scriptural proof for its beliefs (and of course, every objective person would agree with them).

What would happen in a Church where the ecclesiastical authority had always determined Scripture, but was now being challenged by a myriad of sects, each one with different beliefs founded by their particular leader? Naturally, the traditional method of dealing with them was strengthened, and the Church solidified its power. This occured first with the Counter-Reformation, led to the Council of Trent, and so on. This solidified in the ninetenth century with the infallibility of the pope finally formed. It had been in development, though, for a thousand years. One can look at it as the Holy Spirit's moving and preparing the RCC for the onslaught of Protestantism (Do you want to believe something? Sure! We can create a sect that believes the Bible teaches that...quite literally the type of situation then and now). One can see it as a social development. One can see it as a heresy. What we must do, though, if we are to pass judgement (if Christians) is actually get a good grasp of history.

After all, papal authority goes way back. We have the book of Romans in the NT...it's not a coincidence that it's the longest of Paul's letters. We have St. Ignatius' letters in 107, which are very ornate when addressing Rome. We have St. Irenaeus around 150 who taught that if there's a major dispute, that we should go to Rome. Even Tertullian's letters show a Roman primacy, when they make fun of the Pope being called "papa," meaning that he was already called that by the people, and that terms like "pope" and "papacy" were certainly in place in the third century. How you interpret these is up to you, but if we are to say "yay" or "ney" to the papacy, then we must look at history. The NT alone wasn't made for it, and it isn't the sole tool to do it anymore than the Bible determines its own contents.
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
NetDoc said:
There is no "first instance" in your literature?

Well, if you want just "first instance," then it's firmly in place in the third century. Tertullian makes fun of it.
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
NetDoc said:
We could debate Peter's celibacy and to what end?
Peter was married.... not celebate.... I'm not sure who would debate that fact.
NetDoc said:
After all is said and done, Simon/Peter/Cephus never assumed the title of "Pope" and was never seen as infallible. If he were, then Paul would not have had reason to rebuke him.
The Scriptures and the Early Church Fathers clearly show Peter as first among equals.... leader of the Christian faith. The Papacy evolved from that fact.... Peter was not infallible, but the Church is..... and the Vicar of Christ, the VISIBLE leader of the Christian Church on Earth should also be free from error.... makes sense to me.

I obviously will go into more detail if you'd like, but I think first you need to understand the origins of the Papacy, which No*s is presenting very well.

Scott

Ooops almost forgot my favorite Catholic evangelist!:
t3gah said:
You're the one that posted a comment that Jesus didn't speak Greek, Scott. Scroll back and read what you posted.
You really are starting to believe your own lies.....:eek: YOU read it one more time, and see where it clearly states Jesus DID NOT speak Greek.... not COULD NOT speak Greek.

I can understand lying in a discussion, but try not to do it on a forum board where it is so clear to everyone what you are trying to do.

Just some free advice.;) Scott
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
I doubt it's a lie. Most people don't get information on any form of Catholicism from primary sources, but from people writing about it (usually against it). As such, I have a feeling he firmly believes what he says, and actually trusts it.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Youdaman No*s... I don't care WHAT SOGFPP says about you behind your back. (ohhh, he can be viscious, I tell you! :D )
 
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