Was Muhammad The Greatest Moral Example?

[McBell]

Please try your luck on the above "1. Being Honest, Truthful, Trustworthy" and provide a single, repeat a single verse, repeat a single verse of Quran that is against being honest, truthful and trustworthy.

I notice you did not address the list provided to you (terrorism, paedophilia, torturing, etc) but instead diverted from it.

 

[paarsurrey]

#107

I find a list:
2. Having Integrity
http://jneedham.iweb.bsu.edu/408/Keith-Spiegel -- 24 moral_characteristics_list.htm

For every virtue you type - there are numerous verses in Koran that stand against it. It supports terrorism, paedophilia, torturing, etc. Only a man with low morale and crippled rational thinking power would consider koran as a source for guidance. They can never believe that there is a far better morally advanced world out there.

Please try your luck at "2. Having Integrity" above and provide a single, repeat a single verse, repeat a single verse of Quran that is against having integrity as a moral behaviour.
Also @Rival friend and @matthew_/!/ friend

Regards

 

[matthew_/!/]

#107


Please try your luck at "2. Having Integrity" above and provide a single, repeat a single verse, repeat a single verse of Quran that is against having integrity as a moral behaviour.

Regards

The amount of verses in the Quran which speak of violent acts outweighs any verse which mentions having integrity, therefore I don't feel as if a quote about integrity would have any weight in this argument

 

[paarsurrey]

I find a list:

3. Being Caring/ Compassionate/ Benevolent
http://jneedham.iweb.bsu.edu/408/Keith-Spiegel -- 24 moral_characteristics_list.htm

For every virtue you type - there are numerous verses in Koran that stand against it. It supports terrorism, paedophilia, torturing, etc. Only a man with low morale and crippled rational thinking power would consider koran as a source for guidance. They can never believe that there is a far better morally advanced world out there.

Please try your luck at "3. Being Caring/ Compassionate/ Benevolent" above and provide a single, repeat a single verse, repeat a single verse of Quran that is against being caring/compassionatebBenevolent.
Also @Rival friend and @matthew_/!/ friend

Regards

 

[icehorse]

Hi paarsurrey,

For the sake of discussion, let's agree that Muhammad was honest. And further we can agree that Muhammad demonstrated other moral qualities.

The thing is that Muslims declare Muhammad to the "the perfect model" or "the greatest example". Muslims set themselves up for debate and disagreement with non-believers when they say "perfect". Perfect means perfect. It doesn't mean "some good qualities" or "usually pretty good". So if you're gonna defend that Muhammad was "perfect" to a non-believer, that means "perfect". No flaws. No errors. No "historical context". Perfect means perfect.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Hi paarsurrey,

The thing is that Muslims declare Muhammad to the "the perfect model" or "the greatest example". Muslims set themselves up for debate and disagreement with non-believers when they say "perfect". Perfect means perfect. It doesn't mean "some good qualities" or "usually pretty good". So if you're gonna defend that Muhammad was "perfect" to a non-believer, that means "perfect". No flaws. No errors. No "historical context". Perfect means perfect.

Some Muslims might think that Allah and Muhammad share perfect attributes, but the vast majority of Muslims believe that Muhammad, peace be with Him, was a man. No man who's ever lived is 'perfect' as only Allah is pure and Holy.
However, the prophets are the best of company .. their connection with Allah is greater, and there are no better people to learn wisdom

 

[icehorse]

Some Muslims might think that Allah and Muhammad share perfect attributes, but the vast majority of Muslims believe that Muhammad, peace be with Him, was a man. No man who's ever lived is 'perfect' as only Allah is pure and Holy.
However, the prophets are the best of company .. their connection with Allah is greater, and there are no better people to learn wisdom

Notice the title of this particular thread ^ ^ ^

 

[muhammad_isa]

Notice the title of this particular thread ^ ^ ^

Yes .. I did notice
If you wish to take the examples of prophets who came before Muhammad, peace be with him, that's fine..
However, we have a LOT more information about Muhammad's life than any other prophet, being the most recent and well documented.

 

[morphesium]

Some Muslims might think that Allah and Muhammad share perfect attributes, but the vast majority of Muslims believe that Muhammad, peace be with Him, was a man. No man who's ever lived is 'perfect' as only Allah is pure and Holy.
However, the prophets are the best of company .. their connection with Allah is greater, and there are no better people to learn wisdom

What if after your death you happens to meet God and he says- I have sent you yourself as the prophet. I have embedded morals and other goodness in you so that you would enlighten the society, stand against the evils in your society etc. Why did you succumb to your religion just because it said it was from God?

What if God says I had given you a rational and logical brain so that you can distinguish husk from the grain, but you never used it to know me? You have never searched for the wisdom that I have embedded in you.

 

[muhammad_isa]

What if God says I had given you a rational and logical brain so that you can distinguish husk from the grain, but you never used it to know me? You have never searched for the wisdom that I have embedded in you.

There is no reason for Almighty God to say that .. He is the One who guides us in this life .. all that is necessary is to have sincerity of intention in how we live our lives. He knows that I HAVE searched for wisdom .. we all fall short, no doubt, but the main thing is that we don't abandon faith altogether.

 

[Corthos]

There is no reason for Almighty God to say that .. He is the One who guides us in this life .. all that is necessary is to have sincerity of intention in how we live our lives. He knows that I HAVE searched for wisdom .. we all fall short, no doubt, but the main thing is that we don't abandon faith altogether.

Interesting... Do you personally feel that even those who follow other gods in their search for wisdom will instead be measured according to their hearts and deeds rather than by what gods they may worship (or gods they have felt a calling towards)? What about those who's search has led them away from a god altogether? What about those who have no time for gods, but instead care about where we are here and now, and do their best to be a positive influence on the world around them?

 

[morphesium]

There is no reason for Almighty God to say that ..

Yes there is. If God exists, he will be asking this to you.

He is the One who guides us in this life .

Religious believers are often guided by their religion and some religious texts; the more they are into their religion - the more blinded they are and nothing can be more deceiving.

all that is necessary is to have sincerity of intention in how we live our lives. He knows that I HAVE searched for wisdom .. we all fall short, no doubt, but the main thing is that we don't abandon faith altogether.

No, you haven't. Thats why you are agreeing with your religion. Rummaging Koran is not searching for wisdom. Even if scientific knowledge has figured out a lot of mistakes in Koran, people just can't accept the truth. You have to question your faith to get closer to the truth.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Interesting... Do you personally feel that even those who follow other gods in their search for wisdom will instead be measured according to their hearts and deeds rather than by what gods they may worship (or gods they have felt a calling towards)?

Almighty God is aware of our intentions. It is our intentions that will be 'laid bare' after death..

What about those who's search has led them away from a god altogether? What about those who have no time for gods, but instead care about where we are here and now, and do their best to be a positive influence on the world around them?

That would depend on why .. when I say why, I mean the deep-seated subconscious reason why!

 

[muhammad_isa]

Y
No, you haven't. Thats why you are agreeing with your religion .. You have to question your faith to get closer to the truth.

Who are YOU to say what I have done and what I have not done?
I was raised as a Christian, got lost in my teen-age years, and was born-again ie. found a strong faith in my early twenties. I have been a Muslim for over 40 years, and have not found any religion that is as close to the truth as Islam!
To understand Islam, it's no good just looking at what people are doing, we have to study, come into contact with a variety of people, travel etc.

 

[morphesium]

Who are YOU to say what I have done and what I have not done?
I was raised as a Christian, got lost in my teen-age years, and was born-again ie. found a strong faith in my early twenties. I have been a Muslim for over 40 years, and have not found any religion that is as close to the truth as Islam!
To understand Islam, it's no good just looking at what people are doing, we have to study, come into contact with a variety of people, travel etc.

Because your own words speaks against what you say. The truth is this "to understand Islam, look at what the followers are doing" and its bad - very bad.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi paarsurrey,
For the sake of discussion, let's agree that Muhammad was honest. And further we can agree that Muhammad demonstrated other moral qualities.
The thing is that Muslims declare Muhammad to the "the perfect model" or "the greatest example". Muslims set themselves up for debate and disagreement with non-believers when they say "perfect". Perfect means perfect. It doesn't mean "some good qualities" or "usually pretty good". So if you're gonna defend that Muhammad was "perfect" to a non-believer, that means "perfect". No flaws. No errors. No "historical context". Perfect means perfect.

In absolute sense only G-d is perfect.
Muhammad is perfect as a human could be perfect.
Regards

 

[icehorse]

In absolute sense only G-d is perfect.
Muhammad is perfect as a human could be perfect.
Regards

This is a situation where it's important for me to understand precisely what you mean here. You might be saying one of these two things:

1 - All humans are equally perfect. (I don't think you meant that.)
2 - A human can never be perfect, but Muhammad was as close to perfect as is humanly possible. (I think that's what you meant?)

If I understand you, then I have to disagree, and I suspect that ultimately we'll have to agree to disagree.

I think many humans have been far more perfect than Muhammad.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The truth is this "to understand Islam, look at what the followers are doing" and its bad - very bad.

Oh yes? And what followers are these that you speak of? Do they live in your area, and converse with you regularly?

 

[icehorse]

Oh yes? And what followers are these that you speak of? Do they live in your area, and converse with you regularly?

Well one example of how we can discover these things is to look at worldwide FGM statistics.

 

[Kirran]

Please try your luck at "3. Being Caring/ Compassionate/ Benevolent" above and provide a single, repeat a single verse, repeat a single verse of Quran that is against being caring/compassionatebBenevolent.
Also @Rival friend and @matthew_/!/ friend

Regards

Narrated Ibn Abbas:
When Allah's Apostle arrived in Mecca, he refused to enter the Ka'ba while there were idols in it. So he ordered that they be taken out. The pictures of the (Prophets) Abraham and Ishmael, holding arrows of divination in their hands, were carried out. The Prophet said, "May Allah ruin them (i.e. the infidels) for they knew very well that they (i.e. Abraham and Ishmael) never drew lots by these (divination arrows). Then the Prophet entered the Ka'ba and said. "Allahu Akbar" in all its directions and came out and not offer any prayer therein.

— Muhammad al-Bukhari, Sahih al-Bukhari

I think what this depicts, namely breaking into the house of worship of the pagans and destroying their idols, would come under the heading of not being benevolent. Just as if you broke into the (Hindu) temple here in Cambridge and destroyed all the statues, it would not be benevolent.

There are various claims that the Kaabah was originally built to not have idols in, but this is the claim of the aniconists. Regardless, it could have been done far more peacably than reports generally claim - i.e. smashing the idols, rather than negotiating with the people using this place of worship for it to be handed over to the followers of Muhammad peacably, or arranging to share the space.