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Featured Was Muhammad a Messenger of God?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by adrian009, Jul 3, 2018.

?
  1. Yes

    35.1%
  2. No

    57.9%
  3. Possibly

    5.3%
  4. I don't know

    1.8%
  1. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    Women go through menopause, men maybe go through penopause
    Having a 15 year old wife for 10 years might need to be balanced out by young wives
    And really 50-year-young. You might be surprised if you do a poll on guys interested in:
    1: Erotic Dancing Girls
    2: Multiple partners
    I have seen it all on RF; I am not easily surprised on this [most hold on to sex; few let go of sex]
    Personal i agree, once you have a greater goal, it's easy to let go of young damsels
    But generally most men are more into women than into God [they might try to do both though]

    If they were into women till age 50, it's hard to break loose "sex attachment"
    Some say "1 in a 1000" choose 100% for God
    But then only "1 in a 1000" of these have the stamina to continue
    Those who reach are even less in number

    Makes sense if I look around me
     
  2. KT Shamim

    KT Shamim Ahmadiyya Muslim Community

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    25 years of celibacy followed by 25 years of monogamy with a much older widow should remove any doubt that the Holy Prophet Muhammad ﷺ married multiple women for any selfish reasons.
    It falls on those who disagree to show any documented examples of people who adopted 25 years of celibacy followed by 25 years of monogamy and then let themselves be devoured into carnal desires at the age of 50.
     
  3. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    1: --
    2: No [We have just different View, so let's agree to disagree]
    3: Yes [But, I feel no need to demonstrate to you; I don't need you to change your mind]
    4: Yes [Again we see things different, that is all IMO]
    5: Yes [Fully agree with this highest Advaita teaching; realize;) this and you are enlightened]
     
    #103 stvdv, Jul 4, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2018
  4. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    I think there is totally no need to proof anything about the Holy Prophet Muhammed
    25 years celibacy does not say much to me; see some Christian Priest + Muslim Imaams
    But I don't question: Shiva, Rama, Krishna, Buddha, Jesus, Muhammed, Bahá'u'lláh, Sai Baba
    I follow good teachings, stay away from judging others; being aware 3 fingers pointing back
    I do not judge other Religions; but they should not harm others; that's the key to me

    "Hurt Never, Help Ever" is an easy way to distinguish
     
    #104 stvdv, Jul 4, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2018
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  5. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    This sounds very defensive.

    People are entitled to have their own opinions, you know.
     
  6. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    Every prophet is the last prophet until the next one comes along.

    Anyone who took over or created a country. That's a pretty long list, even if you filter out all the countries that did NOT want their people to be raised out of ignorance.

    Lots of people hanging onto their every word, even after death. People who are attention-seeking LOVE that kind of thing. Are you not expected to follow him despite the fact that over a century has passed and we need help NOW?

    Why listen to dead prophets/messengers when there are tons of people trying to raise people out of ignorance NOW?

    Then every generation would have at least one messenger, not one messenger per every few centuries or whatever.

    This kind of thing happens when you place all of your eggs into a basket hundreds if not thousands of years old.

    Desperately clinging to old texts for modern guidance is like thinking the world is going to end because some Mayans ran out of room drawing their calendar.

    To close a canon is to invite slavery to ignorance. If God is everlasting, so too should be the messages.



    And didn't Krishna get killed (eventually) and the entire kingdom fall because, as Gandhari noted, Krishna was manipulating the entire drama? I mean, sure, the people had obvious roles to play, but once Krishna enters the story, it's abundantly clear He was jerking their chains for "reasons". Now, I love Krishna and find Him to be a much better God-man than Jesus. However, He's not any less of a jerk sometimes.

    An orphan without much place in society wanted out of that life? No, it cannot be! [/sarcasm]

    Indeed.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Kohlberg's_stages_of_moral_development

    To be fair, the US has some (ahem) God-awful spiritual films. Plus, any set of movies based on the bible would be for mature audiences only, because a LOT of dark stuff happens in it.

    Given that positive stories can go viral as well, I'm calling BS on what the media uses as an excuse.

    Which is also probably why religious texts are filled with it too.

    Messenger: The Lord sayeth sex is bad.
    Audience: All sex?
    Messenger: Certain sex.
    Audience: Can you describe? Like, in detail? Make sure not to miss anything.

    :p

    LOL. I think the only thing stopping me from being a Hindu is the need for absurdly large numbers :p

    Yep. If Jesus can't be bothered to clock in, then the rest of us have to do the job ourselves.

    I was once almost bumper to bumper with other cars on a sharp bend in the road. I had an overwhelming urge to move forward as much as possible. As soon as I did, BAM! A crash around the bend, one I could not have seen given the trees and hill and such, caused a chain reaction wreck but my car was unaffected because I had pulled up.

    Well, to a Sim, their drama is real, even if they aren't from our perspective.
     
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  7. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    It is probably not out of place to remind ourselves that there is no inherently well-delimited meaning to the expression "messenger of God".

    It is legitimate to interpret it in a way such as to exclude literally all people ever from qualifying. Or to qualify only one person (real or legendary) or a very few people.

    But it is just as easy and as legitimate to take slightly different premises and declare that literally all people are messengers of God. Including "unrepentant" kuffar such as yours truly who would never describe themselvers as such.
     
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  8. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    Well, since I've found no reason to believe in any gods and you see no reason to change my mind, I'm not in a position to recognize anyone as a messenger of God.
     
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  9. Sleeppy

    Sleeppy Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.

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    Yes and no. Inasmuch as everyone and everything is a messenger of God.
     
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  10. KT Shamim

    KT Shamim Ahmadiyya Muslim Community

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    Yeah ... everyone's free to disagree. To criticize. And to defend against criticism with the keyboard.
     
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  11. KT Shamim

    KT Shamim Ahmadiyya Muslim Community

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    Thank you for your replies.
     
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  12. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    Thank you Kelly, for your wonderful sharp quotes full of insight. I enjoy them.

    Creative. I have been sleeping. Indeed it is really that simple.

    In Holland we have the proverb "Saint is not recognized in their own time/country" + "Don't speak bad about the Dead"
    No coincidence these proberbs, they are made to brainwash people "Jesus is good". If not enough "All roads lead to Rome". Nasty one IMHO.

    That's why Christians would never recognize Jesus if He would return.

    Thank you. Wonderful put in pictures what I tried telling for a long time.

    *** Understandable: You need a thorn to remove a thorn ***
    Once Sai Baba said "I lie more than Krishna Avatar". Most people think it's just a dumb reply. Sai Baba always says "God is in all of you". So saying I lie more than Krishna Avatar means "more humans lie than 5000 years ago". And that is totally valid, because there are more humans now [and they have become better in lying also IMO]. So I don't believe verses in Bible and Koran blindly. Better be a bit creative, and read between the lines. Otherwise they might fool you. So reply was not only "not dumb", it was even correct. And I heard in all these year at least 50 of these I think.

    Big Numbers are good to cure false hope "next year He will return". Priests in Holland say it at almost all gatherings "And Jesus will come soon"

    Thank you God. Otherwise we would have missed out on Kelly's nice insights.
     
    #112 stvdv, Jul 4, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2018
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  13. England my lionheart

    England my lionheart Rockerjahili Rebel
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    I voted no, a claim to numbers doesn't make it true and looking at the places in the world where religion is held to be true theres little to think it is.

    So let's look at Muhammeds claim, he heard voices in a cave that he said came from an angel, there is no proof of that it's only his word,the quran is the same as those who wrote the bible in that they were written by humans with power in mind and if you look at the history of Islam its power through war and warbooty.

    So really Muhammed was a messenger of a god if you give credence to the claim and therefore a belief and not a fact Imo.
     
  14. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Please quote from Quran, the first and the foremost source of guidance of Islam/Muhammad whatever the denomination.

    Regards
     
  15. KT Shamim

    KT Shamim Ahmadiyya Muslim Community

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    That is a mistake pointed out in the Qur'an as well:
    [Qur'an 40:35] "... when he died, you said: ‘Allah will never raise up a Messenger after him.’ Thus does Allah adjudge as lost those who transgress, and are doubters"
    [Qur'an 72:8] "'And indeed they thought, even as you think, that Allah would never raise any Messenger.'"

    A common mistake.

    The feel I get throughout this response of your ...
    ... is that most religions quote Prophets making extraordinary prophecies that come to be fulfilled but ...

    ... while old stories have their place a true religion must be a living religion still having Divinely appointed representatives showing signs of truth ...

    ... for only a living religion is one whose texts, no matter how old, would be believed if God is still providing evidence of it being Divinely revealed and still applicable ...

    ... for the God who used to speak still should speak and His sudden silence is so ... taking the life out of the religion.

    Rejoice, for the good news is that the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community found through Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian (as) under Divine guidance exhibits that living relationship that is lacking in other religions.
     
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  16. England my lionheart

    England my lionheart Rockerjahili Rebel
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    No its your source of guidance not mine, it's a source of belief not facts therefore it's of no use to reference a book of belief unless you have found any truth in it, it's mythology Imo, there's much older mythologies that had many believers that weren't shown to be true either.
     
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  17. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    I don't know about that! :)
     
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  18. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    In that case Baha'u'llah was a thousand years late! Even Muhammad's appearance was at least 300 years after Christianity began to dissolve into fractious sectarianism - and there was precious little "protection of good" in the Roman part of the Christendom - well until now - at least 18 centuries on from the beginning of the "decay of righteousness" in the pre-Islamic dispensation.
     
  19. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    Thanks @Tumah

    Of course you are right - in fact the Zadokian line were the ones singled out specifically for temple duties in the prophetic vision of the rebuilt temple...but the other priestly families remained priests - I definitely got that wrong in my post

    Thanks for the pointers on further information about the priesthood - and this too is obviously correct...thanks for clarifying another misleading statement on my part.

    Really? I thought the temple/tabernacle service part was a special provision only given to the Aaronic line but the priestly status was inherited by Aaron through his lineage from Abraham (through Isaac, Jacob, Levi, Kohath and Aaron's father Amram). Abraham had acquired/inherited the priesthood from Melchizedek? (According to Jewish tradition). Have I got that wrong too?

    Try Leviticus 10:8-11 and Ezekiel 44:23...and on the more general "priesthood" of the entire nation Exodus 19:6 and Isaiah 61:6...

    And this is where it relates to the Baha'i messenger thing because in the Christian dispensation, this general priesthood privilege passes to ALL Christians (1 Peter 2:9, Revelation 20:6). And since they would have the "law" (which is really - at least in part - the distinction between the holy and the profane that the more exclusive priestly class that went before was commissioned to teach) "written on their hearts" (Jeremiah 31:33, Romans 2:15, Hebrews 10:16) what further need could their be of divine messengers? How could Muhammad possibly be accepted as a messenger of God based on either a Jewish or a Christian interpretation of previous divine revelations? It is - unsurprisingly to me and quite demonstrably - an incoherent theological idea (not that there are very many coherent theological ideas around) - but for Baha'is, it is a serious problem because they claim that their theology is inclusive of previous revelations and yet the content of their theology (almost unfailingly) constitutes a flat denial of key theological components of the previous revelations.
     
    #119 siti, Jul 4, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2018
  20. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    then quote a source of Muhammad's time in support of one's statement, please. Right, please?
    Regards
     
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